Gas furnace flame sensor

I think it would be beneficial for folks to understand the basic operational steps a furnace goes through to run successfully.
This is a generic list; it's fairly common among all brands and models. Many of these steps necessitate being done in sequence; only a few can be "concurrently" run. Don't nitpick the nuances; this covers the basics and not your brand-specific application of a unit from 50 years ago. Also, I'm describing the basics of a single-stage system; a two-stage unit is VERY similar, and only varies in that they will fire in high heat mode and then drop to a lower burn state in the lower stage(s), using the additional safety checks unique to a multi-stage unit. And, some of the very new designs have amp draw measuring capability to verify some conditions, but that's rare and so I'm going to ignore it for now.


Here are the general sequence steps:

1- thermostat calls for heat

2 - the call is acknowledged by furnace control board logic and starts the system pre-ignition checks.

3a - control logic checks to see if the pressure switch is open (makes sure that it's not stuck in the closed circuit position; that would make downstream check results invalid)
*NOTE= if p/s circuit is not open, the board sets fault code and stops the sequence
3b - concurrently, the logic is also checking to see that the permissive circuit is closed (the high-temp limit switches and flame roll-out switches are in the desired state)
*NOTE= if the limit circuit is open, system sets a code and stops the sequence
3c - concurrently, the logic will check to see there is no flame being sensed; this assures the flame sense circuit is not defaulted to flame-present condition
*NOTE = if the flame sensor circuit is not open at initial check, the system will set a code and abort sequence
3d - concurrently, there may be logic present which will check to see if the gas valve is not energized via a micro-voltage feedback loop (not on all models, but some)
*NOTE = if the gas valve check is present and not shown in the desired state, the system will set a code and abort the sequence

4a - If the above pre-ignition tests above are passed, the control logic then starts the combustion air draft inducer motor. The draft inducer's purpose is to purge the combustion chambers of any residual gas prior to start up, as well as establish a good draft flow of available combustion air during operation.
4b - At the same time the control logic starts a delay count timer (typically 5-20 seconds depending on brand and model of furnace)

5 - system logic then checks the p/s circuit to see if it's now closed after that waiting period above is satisfied, thereby confirming that HX purge is good and stack vent is not blocked, meaning combustion air is moving properly
*NOTE = if p/s circuit is not confirmed as closed, system sets a fault code and stops sequence

6 - if p/s is now closed as desired, system controls now energize the ignitor circuit (typically a hot surface ignition coil)
6b - system starts a 5-7 delay count timer; this is to allow the HSI to fully warm up (glowing red hot);
*NOTE = this HSI type ignitor is by far the most common system. While rare, you may come across a spark-ignitor or standing pilot light. There won't be a counter delay for the warm-up for these alternate methods; it will just move directly to step 7 if HSI is not present.

7 - the control system presumes the ignition heat source is sufficiently present and so it energizes the gas valve circuit (to open the gas valve)

8 - control system continues sequence and initiates a delay count timer of about 3-7 secs to allow the flame to be initiated and the flame front to travel across the burners to the opposite end of the burner rack; (time duration depends upon brand and model, as more burners take more time to light off)

9 - control system will now look for continuity or small micro-voltage shift at the flame sensor
*NOTE = if no flame is sensed, the system sets code and aborts the sequence

10 - If control logic sees successful flame propagation at the flame sensor, then the burn will continue for anywhere from 30-60 seconds to preheat the HX, then the furnace air-mover blower will be commanded on. During this HX preheat time, the high-heat limit switches simply aren't hot enough yet to cause the limit circuit to trip, or they are ignore by the control logic as part of the warm-up protocol only during this warm-up. Warm-up is present in most furnaces, but not all; some will start the blower immediately after flame is proven present.

11 - system runs the furnace until either the thermostat is satisfied (no more call for heat), or the system detects a non-permissible condition (limit switch trips, pressure switch trips, etc)


Anytime during the fire-up sequence something drops out of permissible conditions, the control logic sets a code and the sequence aborts. Further, if the furnace has properly started and is running well and then later in that burn cycle it experiences a non-permitted condition, it would also set a code and abort. There is logic in most systems to retry ignition AFTER a typical 5 minute wait period (for various safety reasons). After three attempts to purge and light-off with no success, the system will set a hard fault and not attempt a start sequence again until the board is powered down and back up. At this point, a service tech should be called or at the very least a truly knowledgeable person should troubleshoot.


Now again, some of these limits, values and steps are a tad different between brands and models; they are not all identical. But the general logic flow path is there in any modern furnace which has a control board, presuming the features described are present on the unit. And in most cases the logic sequence is as stated above; it's that way for safety reasons.


Thus endeth the lesson for today.
 
Some jurisdictions apparently REQUIRE a combustion analyzer test of a new system. I see Steven Lavimoniere using one every once in a while in his videos. https://www.youtube.com/@stevenlavimoniere
I am not talking about "new" installations. I'm talking about what a colossal waste of money annual checks are. There is ZERO reason to do annual gas analysis checks, presuming the system was properly set upon initial install.

Also, it's not quite true that there's no adjustment--the gas valve IS adjustable. Incorrect adjustment of the gas valve would show up on the combustion analyzer.
Yes, they can adjust the gas pressure differential at the gas valve. But I was speaking about the old burners where they had air-inlet adjustments. Burners today are not adjustable, hence a gas analyzer is not needed IN TERMS OF THE BURNER.

How do you know if there's an issue of any kind if you never check?
You don't. But I would counter with this .... how many times did a gas analysis show something wrong accurately versus showing a problem that truly wasn't there? (aka a false positive; it's very common using gas analysis in the field). And even more importantly, if there was something wrong, there's nothing for the tech to adjust in terms of gas burners, as they aren't adjustable. Gas analysis was popular when the burners were adjustable; they aren't now. So the MAIN reason to do gas analysis is gone.

I do agree that an initial gas analysis may be of limited benefit, but ONLY upon install. So after the initial installation is done properly (setting the gas valve regulator properly), then doing more gas analysis isn't necessary. And since my thrust here was that of showing why annual maintenance contracts aren't a good use of money, your point (while valid at set-up) isn't valid here. And as I already said, if you have a low gas pressure, it's probably not the gas valve that needs to be adjusted; you need to go find the source of the problem upstream. All you are doing when adjusting the gas valve is manipulating the pintle seat spring pressure; those RARELY ever go bad or change. If the gas pressure was set right at install, and then a later analysis shows a problem, it's probably not in the furnace, but in the gas supply upstream. So doing a gas analysis in a "maintenance check" typically leads to nothing needing fixed in the furnace. Hence doing a check of the gas burn is wasted labor in terms of furnace service. And ...
If you do have a gas supply issue that affects the furnace, it's also going to affect the gas dryer, gas water heat, gas stove, and any other gas appliance in the house. It's not like the furnace guy is going to run around resetting all the gas pressures on those appliances. And what happens when the gas supply issue is solved after the furnace gas valve is adjusted? Then ANOTHER service call would need to be done to readjust the adjustments! STOP THE MADNESS !
If required, do a gas analysis at install. Then if any problem occurs thereafter, check and fix the gas supply issues; don't run around constantly adjusting the gas valves!

Little known fact ... most municipal gas supply entities have a "range" of assured gas supply pressure; it's not a constant value by any means. And, the BTU energy also is allowed to fluctuate in a range. If you did a gas analysis on Monday of November 2023, and adjusted the gas valve to perfect the gas burn, I can assure you with absolute certainty that a week later it would sway a bit up or down due to those supply range issues. Don't waste time chasing a gas analysis; it's not worth the time.

Today's gas valves and furnace burn systems are reasonably well engineered and made; they will provide a good burn. They will not be perfect. And if you chase a perfect gas valve adjustment based on a gas analysis, you'll be chasing your tail down the rabbit hole forever after. Set the gas valve pressure once at install and leave it alone.

To be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that your comments don't apply to the situation I was speaking of; that of annual maintenance checks. Doing gas analysis in those annual checks (paying for a service that has no real value) is a rip-off. Most of the time, many annual HVAC checks are a way to milk money out of a customer by saying "Look at all these things I checked and did!". But the reality is that nearly all those checks are not needed annually, and what few are helpful any Joe Average should be able to do (like changing an air filter or flushing a condensate line).

As I said, perhaps those checks are of value once every 10 years. But NOT every year; that's complete and utter nonsense. So paying an annual maintenance fee is about 99% wasted money.
 
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Been retired from the gas industry for more than 20 years but one test we were required to do during a season check was the turn down test which was turning the gas valve ( control) slowly to the off position to test lockout and retry attempts. As I understand flame rod function an A/C current is rectified to D/C which is measured by the ignition control. No D/C then lockout.
 
I often wondered is the gas mixture is running rich or lean? 😁

When the sensor first needed cleaning, the HVAC guy showed me where it was located and showed me on how to clean it. Service call was $35. Since then I had to clean the sensor in our furnace every 3-4 winters. When that interval started to become shorter and shorter I replaced the sensor (I have a couple of spares).

For cleaning, just some polishing and a wipe down with a damp cloth.

furnace 4.jpg
 
Gas analysis was popular when the burners were adjustable; they aren't now.

From what I've seen, it's been many years since the burners were adjustable (adjustable burners pretty much went away when induced-draft furnaces came out, what, over 30 years ago--a change likely required by energy efficiency mandates) while inexpensive, portable gas analyzers have only fairly recently started being used by the HVAC service industry.

That being said, there are still many of these furnaces with adjustable burners still in service. They haven't all gone away.

I do agree that an initial gas analysis may be of limited benefit, but ONLY upon install. So after the initial installation is done properly (setting the gas valve regulator properly), then doing more gas analysis isn't necessary. And since my thrust here was that of showing why annual maintenance contracts aren't a good use of money, your point (while valid at set-up) isn't valid here.

Many systems have been installed without the benefit of a gas analysis or even clocking the meter to check whether the unit is over or under firing.

Gas analysis can find problems that have existed since that initial install, such as undersized ductwork (causes flue gas temps to increase).

If the gas pressure was set right at install

Well that's a pretty big "if". I know the guy who installed the furnace at my rental property some 20 years ago didn't do a combustion gas analysis nor did he clock the meter. I was there for the install. Should have have done those things? Knowing what I do now, I'd say he should have at least clocked the meter; combustion analyzers weren't in common use back then so probably not on that one.

If you do have a gas supply issue that affects the furnace, it's also going to affect the gas dryer, gas water heat, gas stove, and any other gas appliance in the house.

It is entirely possible that the only gas appliance in the house is the furnace. I've lived in a couple of houses where the only gas appliances are the furnace and the water heater.

It's not like the furnace guy is going to run around resetting all the gas pressures on those appliances. And what happens when the gas supply issue is solved after the furnace gas valve is adjusted? Then ANOTHER service call would need to be done to readjust the adjustments! STOP THE MADNESS !

If a tech finds a gas supply issue then the corrective action is to correct it at the supply. That's just common sense, isn't it?

To be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that your comments don't apply to the situation I was speaking of; that of annual maintenance checks. Doing gas analysis in those annual checks (paying for a service that has no real value) is a rip-off. Most of the time, many annual HVAC checks are a way to milk money out of a customer by saying "Look at all these things I checked and did!". But the reality is that nearly all those checks are not needed annually, and what few are helpful any Joe Average should be able to do (like changing an air filter or flushing a condensate line).

I never had anyone do an annual check of the furnace/AC at my old house, and I do not have anyone do an annual check of the heat pump at my new house. The one problem at my new house with the unit that existed since install that an annual check would only have caught if the tech were exceptionally diligent is that the 50 amp and 60 amp circuits for the air handler were swapped around, resulting in the 50 amp breaker tripping once or twice while the unit was in defrost and the aux heating coils were energized (I do not allow the aux heating coils to energize other than in defrost, for energy savings). I also doubt that any tech would have checked the connections at the breaker to find that same 50 amp breaker had a loose connection.

As it was I found both problems myself.

As I said, perhaps those checks are of value once every 10 years. But NOT every year; that's complete and utter nonsense. So paying an annual maintenance fee is about 99% wasted money.

I would say that some of these checks are of value once if they were never done at install.
 
I had the experience of having to clean mine last night. I had heard that the wire can get deposits on it and the symptom is usually that the burners light and then shut off right away. Sure enough, at 12:30 AM I realized it's getting chilly in the house, checked the thermostat and it showed it was commanding heat. Furnace was lighting and shutting off repeatedly. Polished up the wire with some steel wool and it's back in business. So is this just a routine maintenance item? It's a 10 year old Trane, and I'll admit I've never cleaned the sensor. Never had to clean one before though. The burner flame looks normal, not burning yellow and sooting up the probe.
I clean mine every 2-3 years and never had a problem. Yours went ten years before giving problems. You saved yourself several hundred dollars because techs just replace them when all they need is a cleaning.
 
Things must be a lot different in England compared to the U.S. I don't recall seeing any gas furnace units for sale in the U.S. with standing gas pilot lights since the 1980's. I purchased my first home in 1980 and it had the spark ignition system which has been superseded by hot surface igniters for a couple of decades.

It's not different now. We haven't had standing pilot lights for 30 years. I was speaking of an old unit from 1990, I'm in two minds whether to replace it or not. A plumber has advised me that what I have is rock solid reliable because it's simple and has near zero maintenance costs whereas modern units, while efficient are also vastly more complex and with much higher maintenance costs.
 
It's not different now. We haven't had standing pilot lights for 30 years. I was speaking of an old unit from 1990, I'm in two minds whether to replace it or not. A plumber has advised me that what I have is rock solid reliable because it's simple and has near zero maintenance costs whereas modern units, while efficient are also vastly more complex and with much higher maintenance costs.
Your plumber is speaking with the benefit of years of professional experience and he is mostly correct. While modern HVAC units are much more energy efficient and complex, the overall life cycle cost is higher due to: (1) the drastic price increase in new HVAC system installations since the pandemic, and (2) the much shorter lifespan of new equipment. I don't think "maintenance" cost is significantly higher than 30 years ago, but the cost of repair parts and service calls has easily tripled since 1990.
 
Sure glad I got rid of my oil furnace. Put in a new 80% propane three or four years ago and have never used the heater part other than for testing. It was meant to be used during those sub 0F and 40 mph wind days to keep the crawl space warm. But I found out the issue was the garage door rollers worn out. pushing the door in and letting in the air.

It looks' to me like the burner orifices can be changed easily. Don't know if the heat exchanger would be up to larger ones or not though.
 
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