G.M laying off in Oshawa.
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Originally Posted By: dishdude
There is so much politically motivated, factually incorrect rhetoric in this thread that it is pathetic.
Then please, correct what is not correct.
There is so much politically motivated, factually incorrect rhetoric in this thread that it is pathetic.
Then please, correct what is not correct.
People in the auto manufacturing business are going to get laid off as machines get invented that replace human labor.
I'm still showing GM my middle finger.
I'm still showing GM my middle finger.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: dishdude
There is so much politically motivated, factually incorrect rhetoric in this thread that it is pathetic.
Then please, correct what is not correct.
Processing..............Please Wait............Processing.....
Originally Posted By: dishdude
There is so much politically motivated, factually incorrect rhetoric in this thread that it is pathetic.
Then please, correct what is not correct.
Processing..............Please Wait............Processing.....
MolaKule
Staff member
I am sorry to hear that kind of news and any layoff type news for that matter.
Quote:
If it did, that would almost seem like a form of blackmail.
The problem as I see it is that GM got in bed with a group that wants to Nationalize many industries beginning with financing, manufacturing, and the health industry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization
Unfortunately, the result is the craftsman in the factory gets the shaft.
Quote:
Bring the plant to NC. We'll be glad to have you and you won't have to worry about the UAW making you uncompetitive.
Sounds similar to what Boeing did.
Quote:
If it did, that would almost seem like a form of blackmail.
The problem as I see it is that GM got in bed with a group that wants to Nationalize many industries beginning with financing, manufacturing, and the health industry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization
Unfortunately, the result is the craftsman in the factory gets the shaft.
Quote:
Bring the plant to NC. We'll be glad to have you and you won't have to worry about the UAW making you uncompetitive.
Sounds similar to what Boeing did.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I've posted this on our local GTA Mustang board and the topic has gotten pretty heated (for obvious reasons).
Originally Posted By: Maritime Storm
This another example of the reasons we shouldn't have bailed out GM. Since the bailout GM has been closing plants and laying off workers while transferring this work to plants in China and Mexico. The job losses the bailout was supposed to prevent are still happening. Makes one wonder if that money could have been better spent. Also, wasn't this the plant that had the highest quality control of all of GM's North American plants?
Wait wait wait, what? GM has NOT been transferring work to plants in china and Mexico. Learn your facts dude. GM has been moving work BACK to US/Canadian plants. YES they've closed some, but they've closed ones that are unprofitable or not necessary. It's called efficiency, and operating within a budget. Something GM did not do before. As far as mexico goes, GM has not moved ANY production to that country, in fact they'ved moved a lot of it BACK to the US.
And as far as China goes, that's because in order to SELL cars in china, they have to be BUILT in china, with collaboration from a Chinese automaker. Stop spouting half truths and flat out lies and trying to sell them as fact.
This another example of the reasons we shouldn't have bailed out GM. Since the bailout GM has been closing plants and laying off workers while transferring this work to plants in China and Mexico. The job losses the bailout was supposed to prevent are still happening. Makes one wonder if that money could have been better spent. Also, wasn't this the plant that had the highest quality control of all of GM's North American plants?
Wait wait wait, what? GM has NOT been transferring work to plants in china and Mexico. Learn your facts dude. GM has been moving work BACK to US/Canadian plants. YES they've closed some, but they've closed ones that are unprofitable or not necessary. It's called efficiency, and operating within a budget. Something GM did not do before. As far as mexico goes, GM has not moved ANY production to that country, in fact they'ved moved a lot of it BACK to the US.
And as far as China goes, that's because in order to SELL cars in china, they have to be BUILT in china, with collaboration from a Chinese automaker. Stop spouting half truths and flat out lies and trying to sell them as fact.
The Canadian auto workers union did such an spectacular job of looking after their members' interests in negotiations with Caterpillar that Cat shut their Canadian locomotive plant and moved all the jobs to the USA. Sounds like another home run for the CAW's job protection team.
Nick. The plant they're closing here has lower labour cost than the ones in Detroit do, there is no way GM is going to move jobs from a lower cost of operation to a higher one. Also drivetrains from the chinese plants have been used in NA built Equinoxs since around 2005. Roughly half of the Cavalier/Sunfires & Cobalt/G5's sold in Canada came from Mexico. The Avalanche is built solely in Mexico. GM also imports models and drivetrains from South Korea. GM has been moving these jobs out of NA for a long time. Regardless, the bailout was paid to prevent job losses in your country and mine, something that clearly should not have been done, the jobs were and are going away whether GM was paid or not.
Originally Posted By: Maritime Storm
Nick. The plant they're closing here has lower labour cost than the ones in Detroit do, there is no way GM is going to move jobs from a lower cost of operation to a higher one. Also drivetrains from the chinese plants have been used in NA built Equinoxs since around 2005. Roughly half of the Cavalier/Sunfires & Cobalt/G5's sold in Canada came from Mexico. The Avalanche is built solely in Mexico. GM also imports models and drivetrains from South Korea. GM has been moving these jobs out of NA for a long time. Regardless, the bailout was paid to prevent job losses in your country and mine, something that clearly should not have been done, the jobs were and are going away whether GM was paid or not.
Hah, I see where you were going with this. The 3.4L used until 2009 did come from China. But the 2010+ models , the 2.4L is from the Springfield and Tonawanda plants iirc, and the 3.0L V6 is from St. Catharines, Ontario. I can't speak to the mexican Sunfires and cavaliers, I knew that a few were built in Mexico, but most of them were from Lordstown.
You are acting like GM is shipping MORE jobs, when the reality is is that the number of jobs being exported is shrinking, albeit some still do exist. Ford builds plenty of it's vehicles in mexico. For that matter, so does Volkswagen. The amount of vehicles and powertrain components that GM builds in Mexico compared to Ford and VW is laughable.
Ford builds the current model fusion (Michigan gets the 2013), the fiesta, most of their 4 cylinders, a lot of their transmissions.
The aveo was the last full model imported from Korea. A few engines, such as the 1.8L used in the sonic, some of that production is in Korea sure. Korea > Mexico, imho, and it's not a large amount of parts.
Nick. The plant they're closing here has lower labour cost than the ones in Detroit do, there is no way GM is going to move jobs from a lower cost of operation to a higher one. Also drivetrains from the chinese plants have been used in NA built Equinoxs since around 2005. Roughly half of the Cavalier/Sunfires & Cobalt/G5's sold in Canada came from Mexico. The Avalanche is built solely in Mexico. GM also imports models and drivetrains from South Korea. GM has been moving these jobs out of NA for a long time. Regardless, the bailout was paid to prevent job losses in your country and mine, something that clearly should not have been done, the jobs were and are going away whether GM was paid or not.
Hah, I see where you were going with this. The 3.4L used until 2009 did come from China. But the 2010+ models , the 2.4L is from the Springfield and Tonawanda plants iirc, and the 3.0L V6 is from St. Catharines, Ontario. I can't speak to the mexican Sunfires and cavaliers, I knew that a few were built in Mexico, but most of them were from Lordstown.
You are acting like GM is shipping MORE jobs, when the reality is is that the number of jobs being exported is shrinking, albeit some still do exist. Ford builds plenty of it's vehicles in mexico. For that matter, so does Volkswagen. The amount of vehicles and powertrain components that GM builds in Mexico compared to Ford and VW is laughable.
Ford builds the current model fusion (Michigan gets the 2013), the fiesta, most of their 4 cylinders, a lot of their transmissions.
The aveo was the last full model imported from Korea. A few engines, such as the 1.8L used in the sonic, some of that production is in Korea sure. Korea > Mexico, imho, and it's not a large amount of parts.
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We'll agree to disagree. Do some more digging though, it may open your eyes.
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1908205,00.html
http://www.drtomorrow.com/lessons/lessons3/31.html
http://mexicanautomotive.com/en/home/64-...l-report-growth
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1908205,00.html
http://www.drtomorrow.com/lessons/lessons3/31.html
http://mexicanautomotive.com/en/home/64-...l-report-growth
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Originally Posted By: Maritime Storm
Nick. The plant they're closing here has lower labour cost than the ones in Detroit do, there is no way GM is going to move jobs from a lower cost of operation to a higher one. Also drivetrains from the chinese plants have been used in NA built Equinoxs since around 2005. Roughly half of the Cavalier/Sunfires & Cobalt/G5's sold in Canada came from Mexico. The Avalanche is built solely in Mexico. GM also imports models and drivetrains from South Korea. GM has been moving these jobs out of NA for a long time. Regardless, the bailout was paid to prevent job losses in your country and mine, something that clearly should not have been done, the jobs were and are going away whether GM was paid or not.
Labor cost is only part of the cost equation. There is still a massive cost associated with keeping a plant open and operating. Especially when they'll likely only be running one or two shifts for a single product.
CAMI is the home for the Equinox/Terrain. Oshawa was overflow due to demand. GM is already operating D-Ham to product the Volt. There is a lot of capacity there in a plant that's already running for a small volume product. Moving the Impala to D-Ham better aligns the production volume to the capacity of the plant. That leaves the Oshawa consolidation line completely empty and they can now shut off the lights completely.
I understand that you're Canadian, but you can't tell me that you honestly think its a good business decision to keep two plants open at reduced capacity than to just consolidate them to one plant and close the other.
As for the example of cars with Mexican production. Did you notice that none of them are in production anymore? They've all been replaced by the Cruze, which is assembled in Lordstown, Ohio. The Chinese-built 3.4L is also long gone.
Canada does get some other products that aren't assembled in US/Canada, like the Orlando, but Canada isn't a large enough market to warrant setting up a line *only* to supply them. This is the same lesson Australia is learning.
Everybody wants GM to make smart and effective decisions that don't pander to the unions... except when it affects whatever country the person happens to live in.
Nick. The plant they're closing here has lower labour cost than the ones in Detroit do, there is no way GM is going to move jobs from a lower cost of operation to a higher one. Also drivetrains from the chinese plants have been used in NA built Equinoxs since around 2005. Roughly half of the Cavalier/Sunfires & Cobalt/G5's sold in Canada came from Mexico. The Avalanche is built solely in Mexico. GM also imports models and drivetrains from South Korea. GM has been moving these jobs out of NA for a long time. Regardless, the bailout was paid to prevent job losses in your country and mine, something that clearly should not have been done, the jobs were and are going away whether GM was paid or not.
Labor cost is only part of the cost equation. There is still a massive cost associated with keeping a plant open and operating. Especially when they'll likely only be running one or two shifts for a single product.
CAMI is the home for the Equinox/Terrain. Oshawa was overflow due to demand. GM is already operating D-Ham to product the Volt. There is a lot of capacity there in a plant that's already running for a small volume product. Moving the Impala to D-Ham better aligns the production volume to the capacity of the plant. That leaves the Oshawa consolidation line completely empty and they can now shut off the lights completely.
I understand that you're Canadian, but you can't tell me that you honestly think its a good business decision to keep two plants open at reduced capacity than to just consolidate them to one plant and close the other.
As for the example of cars with Mexican production. Did you notice that none of them are in production anymore? They've all been replaced by the Cruze, which is assembled in Lordstown, Ohio. The Chinese-built 3.4L is also long gone.
Canada does get some other products that aren't assembled in US/Canada, like the Orlando, but Canada isn't a large enough market to warrant setting up a line *only* to supply them. This is the same lesson Australia is learning.
Everybody wants GM to make smart and effective decisions that don't pander to the unions... except when it affects whatever country the person happens to live in.
Now, I know what your thinking. Was that 5 or 6 workers?? to tell you the truth Ive forgotten myself in all this excitement. But being that this is General Motors, the most powerful Automaker in the world, and would blow your wallet clean off your pants, you have to ask yourself a question: Do you feel a layoff? Well? Do ya, Punk?
No, I don't expect to keep either open in the long term be honest. Read a couple of the links I posted, where GM is headed isn't too see. They're biggest market is no longer North America, it's China, the last couple of years GM sold more cars in China then they did in the US.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009175152_apaschinagm.html
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/10/gm-china-outsells-north-america.html
In reality what this boils down to is this. As North Americans, we are our own worst enemies, we grumble and complain that our jobs are going overseas(and they are) and that nothng is built here, then we turn around and shop at Walmart and buy a car with parts built in every country in the world but our own because it cost less. If we keep it up, and history would indicate we are going to, the US and Canada will be in the same financial shape that Greece, Spain, Italy, and Ireland are now in. I would fathom a guess that when Oshawa is finally idled, you'll find these jobs will end up and GM newly expanded plants in Mexico or Shanghai. From a financial standpoint, it makes no financial sense to move them to another Canadian or US plant, we won't pay for our own labour costs.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009175152_apaschinagm.html
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/10/gm-china-outsells-north-america.html
In reality what this boils down to is this. As North Americans, we are our own worst enemies, we grumble and complain that our jobs are going overseas(and they are) and that nothng is built here, then we turn around and shop at Walmart and buy a car with parts built in every country in the world but our own because it cost less. If we keep it up, and history would indicate we are going to, the US and Canada will be in the same financial shape that Greece, Spain, Italy, and Ireland are now in. I would fathom a guess that when Oshawa is finally idled, you'll find these jobs will end up and GM newly expanded plants in Mexico or Shanghai. From a financial standpoint, it makes no financial sense to move them to another Canadian or US plant, we won't pay for our own labour costs.
@Maritime Storm:
It's true about Americans and Canadians being their own worst enemy at this point because of shopping at China Mart and buying any good from a slave wage nation....BUT the ordinary people are not solely to blame, our governments forced through global trade policies that in fact if there was a honest national referendum in the US and Canada back when these illegal trade policies implemented the people would have RESOUNDINGLY voted NO to things like NAFTA, GATT, and the WTO.
Our leaders are guilty of tyranny.
Remember what Ross Perot said, when NAFTA is passed you'll hear the giant sucking sound of jobs leaving the USA for third world slave wage nations.
It's quite interesting that the main stream controlled media and pundits called him crazy, stupid, ect....but he was right wasn't he?
It's true about Americans and Canadians being their own worst enemy at this point because of shopping at China Mart and buying any good from a slave wage nation....BUT the ordinary people are not solely to blame, our governments forced through global trade policies that in fact if there was a honest national referendum in the US and Canada back when these illegal trade policies implemented the people would have RESOUNDINGLY voted NO to things like NAFTA, GATT, and the WTO.
Our leaders are guilty of tyranny.
Remember what Ross Perot said, when NAFTA is passed you'll hear the giant sucking sound of jobs leaving the USA for third world slave wage nations.
It's quite interesting that the main stream controlled media and pundits called him crazy, stupid, ect....but he was right wasn't he?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: Maritime Storm
Nick. The plant they're closing here has lower labour cost than the ones in Detroit do, there is no way GM is going to move jobs from a lower cost of operation to a higher one. Also drivetrains from the chinese plants have been used in NA built Equinoxs since around 2005. Roughly half of the Cavalier/Sunfires & Cobalt/G5's sold in Canada came from Mexico. The Avalanche is built solely in Mexico. GM also imports models and drivetrains from South Korea. GM has been moving these jobs out of NA for a long time. Regardless, the bailout was paid to prevent job losses in your country and mine, something that clearly should not have been done, the jobs were and are going away whether GM was paid or not.
Hah, I see where you were going with this. The 3.4L used until 2009 did come from China. But the 2010+ models , the 2.4L is from the Springfield and Tonawanda plants iirc, and the 3.0L V6 is from St. Catharines, Ontario. I can't speak to the mexican Sunfires and cavaliers, I knew that a few were built in Mexico, but most of them were from Lordstown.
You are acting like GM is shipping MORE jobs, when the reality is is that the number of jobs being exported is shrinking, albeit some still do exist. Ford builds plenty of it's vehicles in mexico. For that matter, so does Volkswagen. The amount of vehicles and powertrain components that GM builds in Mexico compared to Ford and VW is laughable.
Ford builds the current model fusion (Michigan gets the 2013), the fiesta, most of their 4 cylinders, a lot of their transmissions.
The aveo was the last full model imported from Korea. A few engines, such as the 1.8L used in the sonic, some of that production is in Korea sure. Korea > Mexico, imho, and it's not a large amount of parts.
For 2011:
GM Canada: 661,884 vehicles
- Camaro
- Regal
- Equinox
- Terrain
GM Mexico: 543,446 vehicles (some for local consumption)
- "Chevy"
- AVEO
- HHR
- CAPTIVA
- CADILLAC SRX
- AVALANCHE
- ESCALADE EXT
- SILVERADO
- SIERRA
Ford builds in Mexico:
- Fiesta
- Fusion
- MKZ
Originally Posted By: Maritime Storm
Nick. The plant they're closing here has lower labour cost than the ones in Detroit do, there is no way GM is going to move jobs from a lower cost of operation to a higher one. Also drivetrains from the chinese plants have been used in NA built Equinoxs since around 2005. Roughly half of the Cavalier/Sunfires & Cobalt/G5's sold in Canada came from Mexico. The Avalanche is built solely in Mexico. GM also imports models and drivetrains from South Korea. GM has been moving these jobs out of NA for a long time. Regardless, the bailout was paid to prevent job losses in your country and mine, something that clearly should not have been done, the jobs were and are going away whether GM was paid or not.
Hah, I see where you were going with this. The 3.4L used until 2009 did come from China. But the 2010+ models , the 2.4L is from the Springfield and Tonawanda plants iirc, and the 3.0L V6 is from St. Catharines, Ontario. I can't speak to the mexican Sunfires and cavaliers, I knew that a few were built in Mexico, but most of them were from Lordstown.
You are acting like GM is shipping MORE jobs, when the reality is is that the number of jobs being exported is shrinking, albeit some still do exist. Ford builds plenty of it's vehicles in mexico. For that matter, so does Volkswagen. The amount of vehicles and powertrain components that GM builds in Mexico compared to Ford and VW is laughable.
Ford builds the current model fusion (Michigan gets the 2013), the fiesta, most of their 4 cylinders, a lot of their transmissions.
The aveo was the last full model imported from Korea. A few engines, such as the 1.8L used in the sonic, some of that production is in Korea sure. Korea > Mexico, imho, and it's not a large amount of parts.
For 2011:
GM Canada: 661,884 vehicles
- Camaro
- Regal
- Equinox
- Terrain
GM Mexico: 543,446 vehicles (some for local consumption)
- "Chevy"
- AVEO
- HHR
- CAPTIVA
- CADILLAC SRX
- AVALANCHE
- ESCALADE EXT
- SILVERADO
- SIERRA
Ford builds in Mexico:
- Fiesta
- Fusion
- MKZ
Nobody would give a flying rat about GMs layoffs and offshoring if they did not take taxpayers money. But since they did, comparing them to Ford is not exactly apples to apples.
Saying that everybody does it is kind of weak since not everybody took bailout money, got rigged, in they favor, bankruptcy proceedings and years worth of tax free income.
Saying that everybody does it is kind of weak since not everybody took bailout money, got rigged, in they favor, bankruptcy proceedings and years worth of tax free income.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
For 2011:
GM Canada: 661,884 vehicles
- Camaro
- Regal
- Equinox
- Terrain
GM Mexico: 543,446 vehicles (some for local consumption)
- "Chevy"
- AVEO
- HHR
- CAPTIVA
- CADILLAC SRX
- AVALANCHE
- ESCALADE EXT
- SILVERADO
- SIERRA
Ford builds in Mexico:
- Fiesta
- Fusion
- MKZ
To expound on the local consumption. Of those 543,446:
All 37,183 Chevrolet C2 "Chevy" were sold in Soth America.
About 1/2 of the 68,428 Aveo built were sold in Mexico or Central/South America.
About 3/4 of the 42,798 Captiva were sold in Mexico or Central/South America.
About 10,000 of the 85,465 SRX were exported to China.
That is based on comparing the production numbers to the sales numbers for each model in US and Canada thought 2011.
Ford sales numbers (not production numbers) for the three models assembled in Mexico for 2011 is 347,138.
I saw that Nick mentioned that Fusion production would be shifting to Michigan for 2013. I don't think that's correct. Ford just recently announced (last week) a $1.3 billion upgrade to Hermosillo for production of the 2013 model. I can't find any reference to a production shift out of Hermosillo.
For 2011:
GM Canada: 661,884 vehicles
- Camaro
- Regal
- Equinox
- Terrain
GM Mexico: 543,446 vehicles (some for local consumption)
- "Chevy"
- AVEO
- HHR
- CAPTIVA
- CADILLAC SRX
- AVALANCHE
- ESCALADE EXT
- SILVERADO
- SIERRA
Ford builds in Mexico:
- Fiesta
- Fusion
- MKZ
To expound on the local consumption. Of those 543,446:
All 37,183 Chevrolet C2 "Chevy" were sold in Soth America.
About 1/2 of the 68,428 Aveo built were sold in Mexico or Central/South America.
About 3/4 of the 42,798 Captiva were sold in Mexico or Central/South America.
About 10,000 of the 85,465 SRX were exported to China.
That is based on comparing the production numbers to the sales numbers for each model in US and Canada thought 2011.
Ford sales numbers (not production numbers) for the three models assembled in Mexico for 2011 is 347,138.
I saw that Nick mentioned that Fusion production would be shifting to Michigan for 2013. I don't think that's correct. Ford just recently announced (last week) a $1.3 billion upgrade to Hermosillo for production of the 2013 model. I can't find any reference to a production shift out of Hermosillo.
http://downtownflatrock.com/my-community/ford-fusions-to-be-built-in-flat-rock-in-2013/
The hybrid and plug-in versions will be built in Mexico, the gasoline versions in Flat Rock. This is because Mazda is shifting production of the 6 back to it's Japanese plants.
The hybrid and plug-in versions will be built in Mexico, the gasoline versions in Flat Rock. This is because Mazda is shifting production of the 6 back to it's Japanese plants.
It's not just auto manufacturing jobs that we're sending to China.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/us-bridg...aylist=14594944
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/us-bridg...aylist=14594944
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