Fuel Injector Problem Follow Up.
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WOW! I just hope it's not the ethanol. I go out of my way not to purchase it in my gas. I have several gm cars from the 80's and the mulitec injectors have had problems with ethanol.
Our state is even thinking of joining Minnesota and requiring all gas to be mixed with ethanol. In Mn, they don't even label the pumps indicating that ethanol is blended in. In fact I heard that Mn. was thinking of uping the mandate from 10% to 20% blend.
Maybee I am old fasion, but I like my gas straight!! (well ok, I put a shot FP in every thank)
Our state is even thinking of joining Minnesota and requiring all gas to be mixed with ethanol. In Mn, they don't even label the pumps indicating that ethanol is blended in. In fact I heard that Mn. was thinking of uping the mandate from 10% to 20% blend.
Maybee I am old fasion, but I like my gas straight!! (well ok, I put a shot FP in every thank)
Try to fight that Ross. Ethanol does absolutely nothing to reduce emissions in any car with a working oxygen senser. The sensor does what the ethanol tries to do already. All that ends up happening is that one gets worse gas mileage, and pollutes the air MORE.
Here's a conspiracy theory: Maybe the various levels and branches of governments know that ethanol only causes worse mileage, but they still require oxygenated fuel in order to get people to burn more gas, so they can collect more gas tax. I wouldn't put it past the government to sacrifice citizen health for tax dollars...
Here's a conspiracy theory: Maybe the various levels and branches of governments know that ethanol only causes worse mileage, but they still require oxygenated fuel in order to get people to burn more gas, so they can collect more gas tax. I wouldn't put it past the government to sacrifice citizen health for tax dollars...
That's the Citgo PDV Refinery at Lemont IL. But I guess my question is why did the problem only show up in Wisconsin?
Is this a bad batch of gas that was shipped to Wisconsin via pipeline and therefore no probems surfaced in Illinois?
BTW, I run BP Amoco gas from the Whiting, IN refinery with Techron concentrate treatments 3-4 times a year.
Is this a bad batch of gas that was shipped to Wisconsin via pipeline and therefore no probems surfaced in Illinois?
BTW, I run BP Amoco gas from the Whiting, IN refinery with Techron concentrate treatments 3-4 times a year.
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I believe my Audi manual states that a maximum content of 10% ethanol is allowed in the fuel used in my car's engine. I've always gotten horrible mileage with blended fuel, whether it was MTBE or ethanol. I'm talking about 25% worse.
My Chevy-GM Owner's Manual says no more than 10% ethanol. Period. System is not calibrated or set up to compensate for more.
Funny thing about ethanol, it takes more energy to produce than it yields, causes MPG to go down, takes a more refined (more crude used) gasoline with a lower RVP for the blend to come out with a reasonably low vapor pressure, has to have government subsidies to make the stuff competitive price-wise. And it apparently makes keeping fuel injectors clear of deposits more of a challenge. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Funny thing about ethanol, it takes more energy to produce than it yields, causes MPG to go down, takes a more refined (more crude used) gasoline with a lower RVP for the blend to come out with a reasonably low vapor pressure, has to have government subsidies to make the stuff competitive price-wise. And it apparently makes keeping fuel injectors clear of deposits more of a challenge. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Why are we blaming ethanol?
The lack of detergents in gasoline is the cause.
This is why I use a bottle of FI cleaner before every oil change. Prevention helps regardless of owners manual warnings against FI cleaners.
Old injectors are just that. They don't last forever.
http://www.toptiergas.com/why.html
The lack of detergents in gasoline is the cause.
This is why I use a bottle of FI cleaner before every oil change. Prevention helps regardless of owners manual warnings against FI cleaners.
Old injectors are just that. They don't last forever.
http://www.toptiergas.com/why.html
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Because when I got fuel without ethanol the mileage went up. When I went back to the one with ethanol, mileage went down. So I'd say there's strong circumstantial evidence that ethanol reduces gas mileage -- at least in my cars, including the old Buick.
I don't think I have ever replaced an injector or had them cleaned. I sporatically use a cleaner in the gas, usually Techron, but not on any regular basis. I keep cars usually between 100 - 200k... I am surprised to hear of so many injector problems. Currently have a Honda Odyssey w/70k, and wife drives a PT Cruiser w/45k. Drove an 87 Taurus 200k till 1995, Subaru to 120k, trying to remember the cars....
John
John
More info from today's Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel.
The reporters surveyed 300 people in the Milwaukee area who had to pay fuel injector repair bills during this September period:
Where is the gas regularly purchased?
-Roughly 86% had 40K or more miles
My comments:
- I'm surprised that Shell did not show up as a source of gas.
- A large percentage of higher mileage vehicles involved, possibly having a buildup of deposits in the injectors.
A follow-up article is promised for after 01/01/05.
The reporters surveyed 300 people in the Milwaukee area who had to pay fuel injector repair bills during this September period:
Where is the gas regularly purchased?
Most common model years
Type of vehicle
Mileage on Vehicle
-Roughly 86% had 40K or more miles
My comments:
- I'm surprised that Shell did not show up as a source of gas.
- A large percentage of higher mileage vehicles involved, possibly having a buildup of deposits in the injectors.
A follow-up article is promised for after 01/01/05.
Two of the injectors on my 1988 Mustang 5.0 with 161,300 miles were leaking externally. Initially I thought it was the o-rings and replaced them, but the (slight) leak continued. I also noticed at the last spark plug change that some cylinders were running lean and some running lean.
So I ordered a set of 8 cleaned/flow tested 4-hole spray injectors from an Ebay seller for $130. (The originals were pintle-spray; the 4-hole spray injectors are from a 5.0 Ford truck engine application).
Now here's the interesting thing: Before I replaced the injectors, I was getting a code 41/91 (both oxygen sensors reading lean) when I ran the self-test. I traced this to a problem with one of the air pump solenoids being stuck and always diverting air upstream, which causes the oxygen sensors to read lean.
After I replaced the injectors (which I did last week), I reran the test and now it is giving me a code 45, "Air always diverted upstream", which is what I thought to be the problem originally.
What's interesting about that is that it uses oxygen sensor response to test the AIR system, and apparently these old fuel injectors were causing that test to not work properly. After I replaced them, it was able to test the AIR system AND give a correct code for the problem.
Since I replaced the injectors, it also seems to idle smoother and start faster.
[ December 27, 2004, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: brianl703 ]
I've had these same problems with our GM minivan. I tend to blame GM injectors more than anything, because my Ford doesn't have problems ruinning the same fuel. I would bet that many of these injectors that were replaced could have been just cleaned with a machine. I have to get mine cleaned about once or twice a year lately. The GM garage says they do 30 a week. He told it was poor fuel quality causing the problems, but when I asked why my Ford doesn't have a problem he had no answer.
I agree that the ethanol gives poorer mileage, but I don't know that it is causing the injector problems since my Ford vehicles don't have problems.
I agree that the ethanol gives poorer mileage, but I don't know that it is causing the injector problems since my Ford vehicles don't have problems.
Ford uses Bosch injectors. GM uses Delphi/Rochester injectors.
They are interchangeable if you match flow rates and the electrical connector...
They are interchangeable if you match flow rates and the electrical connector...
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