Fuel Economy & Deposits Control

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Did not know FE and deposits where at odds.

Quote:
THE TRADEOFF

The juggling act additive package suppliers perform is particularly challenging in maximizing fuel economy improvements and deposit control. With the available additive chemistries, it appears that maximizing one of these factors can lead to problems in maximizing the other parameter.

Mazzamaro believes that the increase in GF-5 fuel economy requirements as compared to GF-4 can be accomplished with current GF-4 friction modifier additives. Use of other friction modifiers that might provide even better performance is discouraged because it can lead to inferior high-temperature deposit control.

He says, "Unfortunately, very little has changed in friction modifier technology between GF-4 and GF-5 as the Sequence VID fuel economy improvement (FEI) limits were set at a level which barely requires a statistically significant improvement over GF-4 oils, and this minor improvement could be achieved via formulation modifications other than from the friction modifier type."

Mazzamaro maintains that meeting the TEOST 33C deposit-control test makes it very difficult to prepare automotive lubricants that exhibit high levels of fuel economy. He explains, "Inclusion of the TEOST 33C test in GF-5 to protect against turbocharger deposits resulted in limiting the formulator's flexibility in formulating high fuel economy engine oils using molybdenum friction modifiers."

Figure 3 data supports Mazzamaro's contention. An industry consortium conducted testing on five engine oils containing two different additive package technologies that differ in composition by friction modifier level and type. As noted, Oil I prepared with a molybdenum additive exhibits the highest level of fuel economy improvement, according to the Sequence VID test but does not pass the TEOST 33C test.

Szemenyei agrees there is a tradeoff between fuel economy and engine deposits.
 
Quote:
"The Sequence IIIG, Sequence VG and TEOST 33C tests all require higher levels of detergents and dispersants. This is another example where a complete formulation approach must be used to assure the formulation is optimized to meet often conflicting requirements."



Quote:
The shear stability of the VI improver can have a major Impact on fuel economy. VI improver type and base oil source has an impact on selection of PPDs."


*Article is from 2010.
 
If SN spec is said to be better then SM, then why would there be any downside to it?
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Link

Did not know FE and deposits where at odds.

Quote:
THE TRADEOFF

The juggling act additive package suppliers perform is particularly challenging in maximizing fuel economy improvements and deposit control. With the available additive chemistries, it appears that maximizing one of these factors can lead to problems in maximizing the other parameter.

Mazzamaro believes that the increase in GF-5 fuel economy requirements as compared to GF-4 can be accomplished with current GF-4 friction modifier additives. Use of other friction modifiers that might provide even better performance is discouraged because it can lead to inferior high-temperature deposit control.

He says, "Unfortunately, very little has changed in friction modifier technology between GF-4 and GF-5 as the Sequence VID fuel economy improvement (FEI) limits were set at a level which barely requires a statistically significant improvement over GF-4 oils, and this minor improvement could be achieved via formulation modifications other than from the friction modifier type."

Mazzamaro maintains that meeting the TEOST 33C deposit-control test makes it very difficult to prepare automotive lubricants that exhibit high levels of fuel economy. He explains, "Inclusion of the TEOST 33C test in GF-5 to protect against turbocharger deposits resulted in limiting the formulator's flexibility in formulating high fuel economy engine oils using molybdenum friction modifiers."

Figure 3 data supports Mazzamaro's contention. An industry consortium conducted testing on five engine oils containing two different additive package technologies that differ in composition by friction modifier level and type. As noted, Oil I prepared with a molybdenum additive exhibits the highest level of fuel economy improvement, according to the Sequence VID test but does not pass the TEOST 33C test.

Szemenyei agrees there is a tradeoff between fuel economy and engine deposits.


It seems explains why new modern oil using less moly
 
I think this is why we see the majors using additives more sparingly. Also there are forms of moly that are just as or more effective than MolyDTC in lower amounts. There is no perfect formulation because there is always give and take. VII's enter my mind as well. No major has an extremely high VI due, in part,to NOACK requirements.
 
I think we new that.
It shouldn't come as a total surprise that older formulation like non API oil's such as Red Line 5w30 with high AW additive levels are so "dirty". Again only a potential issue if you have a DI engine.

But there are positives like the necessity of using higher quality VII's that are more shear stable. It is a formulating challenge.
For example, the Idemitsu made SM Honda 0W-20 was a high 650 ppm moly 200 VI oil (an oil Honda/Acura Canada still uses). But their first attempts at a GF-5 SN 0W-20 (that Subaru uses) dropped the moly and the VI (to 169).
Then two years later Idemitsu finds a way to restore the moly level to 675 ppm and a 221 VI in the GF-5 SN Mazda 0W-20.

But if you want the absolutely cleanest oil in terms of deposit control I'm sure minimizing certain AW additives like moly is key; think Castrol Edge with it's very low TEOST deposits.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster


*Article is from 2010.


I guess if you were born before 2010, that made you irrelevant, too.


I think you missed the point of that post. Him being the OP, he was just stating when the article was written.
 
Originally Posted By: volk06
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster
*Article is from 2010.
I guess if you were born before 2010, that made you irrelevant, too.
I think you missed the point of that post. Him being the OP, he was just stating when the article was written.


The most relevant fact is that a better dispersant will help prevent the broken down oil and chemicals from forming deposits too quickly. This will help in improving fuel economy within the recommended OCIs.
 
Originally Posted By: volk06
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster


*Article is from 2010.


I guess if you were born before 2010, that made you irrelevant, too.


I think you missed the point of that post. Him being the OP, he was just stating when the article was written.


+1

Thanks.
 
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