Free water taxi between Oakland/Alameda, California - does it make sense?

[y_p_w]

Define workable? At no cost to the passengers, meaning no financial targets, I suppose ridership and reliability would be your only measures. Haven't been in Alameda in a while, since '08 or so, but do you see this as a viable commuter route?

There are actually quite a few “free” public transportation options in the Bay Area. There’s a loop around San Jose Airport that connects to light rail or the Santa Clara train station. A few others including Emery Go Round (mentioned earlier) and others.

https://511contracosta.org/transit/free-transit-services/

I suppose this water shuttle could be used by someone living in Alameda to get across to Oakland where there’s an Amtrak station, or to other public transportation like BART. However, the shuttle between Jack London Square and Broadway is still suspended.

https://www.oaklandca.gov/topics/free-broadway-shuttle

Alameda is kind of interesting. There are actually quite a few employers beyond just retail and boat maintenance. I’ve been there a few times in the past few months. Some of the older industrial parts are being repurposed as office buildings. The former NAS Alameda has quite a few businesses. There’s also office parks. With a bike it might be doable, where bike riding isn’t allowed through an underwater tunnel.

The Wednesday to Sunday schedule might limit its use for commutes, but you never know with hybrid work schedules. Even three typical work days a week isn’t bad. Plus a lot of businesses in Alameda are open weekends.

A guaranteed ride home might help, since there can be unexpected issues like staying late or equipment issues.

https://grh.alamedactc.org/

 

[y_p_w]

Didn't one of these things blow over in a storm some years back, drowning several people?

If I remember it was one of those amphibious "ducks", or something.

That was a case where the weather was horrible and they shouldn’t have been on the water. There’s a responsibility to suspend services in bad weather.

 

[y_p_w]

It better be electric because carbon footprint because science.

SF Bay Ferry is hoping to go all electric by 2050. Having ridden on ferries, it would be nice to eliminate the smell of diesel exhaust. Someone mentioned Niagara Falls, and the current tour operator’s equipment is 100% battery powered.

https://www.maidofthemist.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/102293_MOTM_VesselFactSheetUpdate_R2.pdf

 

[D60]

SF Bay Ferry is hoping to go all electric by 2050. Having ridden on ferries, it would be nice to eliminate the smell of diesel exhaust. Someone mentioned Niagara Falls, and the current tour operator’s equipment is 100% battery powered.

https://www.maidofthemist.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/102293_MOTM_VesselFactSheetUpdate_R2.pdf

If they can make it practical, functional and reliable, I'm all for it!

Huge battery li-ion fire on watercraft = kinda not good

 

[billt460]

If they can make it practical, functional and reliable, I'm all for it!

Huge battery li-ion fire on watercraft = kinda not good

Salt water environment for anything electric equals bad.

 

[Aredeeem]

Hate to be the ferry captain when he opens his first pay envelope and finds it empty. “Sorry Captain, but this is a “free”service. Well, not actually free.

 

[y_p_w]

If they can make it practical, functional and reliable, I'm all for it!

Huge battery li-ion fire on watercraft = kinda not good

Huge diesel engine fire = kinda not good.

Those all electric boats for Maid of the Mist seem to be doing OK. Not sure how they got away with calling one them "Nikola Tesla". Just seems a little too close to another purveyor of electric vehicles.

https://www.burgerboat.com/commercial-vessels/commercial/maid_of_the_mist/

 

[y_p_w]

Salt water environment for anything electric equals bad.

OK then. So what does that bode for all sorts of electric-powered vessels that operate in salt water, like submarines? Of for that matter, all the electrical systems found in pretty much any modern cargo ship? Radios, radar, horns, lights, etc. I suppose they need to go back to being purely mechanical using whale oil for lighting. Maybe eliminate all the electrical/electronic systems in naval vessels since apparently anything electric equals bad?

 

[y_p_w]

I found another article about this where the bike aspect was discussed in more detail.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/07...n-alameda-and-oakland-starts-service-july-17/​

The fact that the water shuttle will accommodate bicycles is a win for the cycling community, said Justin Hu-Nguyen, co-executive director of Mobility Justice in Oakland.​

​

“There is huge lack of access on the western side of Alameda to get to Oakland,” Hu-Nguyen said. “We’ve been waiting for this for a long time.”​

​

There is no pedestrian or bicycle access in the Webster Tube, and only a 36-inch wide raised path through the Posey Tube — the primary arteries to and from the island.​

​

Bicyclists say the trip can be scary, noisy, and that the black soot on the walls is evident of the poor air quality inside the underwater tunnel. Buses run between west Alameda and Jack London Square but the trip takes far longer than 10 minutes. The drive from west Alameda to Jack London Square is about 10 minutes, but longer during commute hours.​

Apparently one can ride a bike through the Posey Tube, but it's pretty nasty for anyone sucking in all that soot in a tunnel. And the path for bikes is really narrow. I wouldn't even want to walk through it.

https://ecocity.wordpress.com/2012/04/23/the-island-problem/

There was the "short hop" option on the San Francisco Bay Ferry, but frequency of service is somewhat low, and the schedules make it difficult to use to just get between Oakland and Alameda. Since the point is to just get to San Francisco, the ferry just touches Oakland and Alameda (in either order depending on which run) but doesn't backtrack.

 

[PandaBear]

During good weather and traffic hours probably not a bad idea, but in bad weather heck no.

Honestly it would probably make a small dent in the congestion between Oakland and Alameda. I think there will be enough passengers if they operate it correctly.

Someone is funding it, maybe they will be happy because that reduce parking and congestion problems, maybe it will increase property value somewhere, I don't know.

 

[y_p_w]

During good weather and traffic hours probably not a bad idea, but in bad weather heck no.

Honestly it would probably make a small dent in the congestion between Oakland and Alameda. I think there will be enough passengers if they operate it correctly.

Someone is funding it, maybe they will be happy because that reduce parking and congestion problems, maybe it will increase property value somewhere, I don't know.

The funding sources are very public. I did find this from 2022. It sounds like the original proposal was weekdays only, and the expected annual cost was about $1.4 to $1.9 million. Not sure how the Wednesday to Sunday schedule came to being, but it would make sense to some degree to operate on the weekends when residents might use it during the day. On weekdays I would expect it would be busiest during commute hours but then quiet midday.

https://alameda.legistar.com/Legisl...zWniiybmlXUlii8QwZ_PBe2BCuO3A5QzCGX77CuSJUnKs

The Marina Village area in Alameda has a Silicon Valley office park feel to it. Apparently it's mostly life science research, but I think maybe some electronics and software. I remember hearing about Velodyne LiDAR having and office in Alameda, and it looks like it's in the Marina Village office park.

 

[y_p_w]

They started service yesterday but ended up suspending service for some unspecified "damage" above the water line.

https://www.alamedaca.gov/Departmen.../Transportation/Oakland-Alameda-Water-Shuttle​

07/18/2024 8:30 AM update: Good news from SF Bay Ferry, our operators: "During service Wednesday evening, crews noticed damage above the water line on the vessel dedicated to the Oakland Alameda Water Shuttle route. The captain suspended service immediately. Welders repaired the vessel overnight, completing work at 4 AM Thursday. We will provide service updates following U.S. Coast Guard inspection of the repairs. The shuttle will remain temporarily suspended until that point."​

 

[y_p_w]

I was passing through Alameda and thought I'd have a look. The public dock at Bohol Circle Immigrant Park is just a ramp going down to the water. The park itself feels like a paved boardwalk, although it has a small playground for kids. It's surrounded by a housing development with lots of townhouses, and I'm thinking the park was part of the deal to build the townhouses.

But I had a look at it. I was trying to figure out where the boat was, and it was on the other side in Oakland near Scott's Seafood, but I waited a while and it got there. Didn't ride it, but got a picture of it. Apologies for my thumb being out of focus.

 

[bbhero]

OK then. So what does that bode for all sorts of electric-powered vessels that operate in salt water, like submarines? Of for that matter, all the electrical systems found in pretty much any modern cargo ship? Radios, radar, horns, lights, etc. I suppose they need to go back to being purely mechanical using whale oil for lighting. Maybe eliminate all the electrical/electronic systems in naval vessels since apparently anything electric equals bad?

A darn submarine is quite waterproof inside the darn thing….

And nothing is “ free “….

 

[zzyzzx]

people living on the Oakland side might use the water taxi for shopping at Safeway, Target,

So, shoplifters in Oakland will get a free taxi to help close down some more stores.

 

[y_p_w]

So, shoplifters in Oakland will get a free taxi to help close down some more stores.

Sure. Like shoplifters are looking to take public transportation where there's no rapid way to get out. Yeah - I'll just walk a half mile to the dock and wait for Alameda Police to show up and arrest me.

 

[nthach]

Sure. Like shoplifters are looking to take public transportation where there's no rapid way to get out. Yeah - I'll just walk a half mile to the dock and wait for Alameda Police to show up and arrest me.

I will say this - ACSO/CCCSO and BART Police will respond quick to any thing in the AC/BART systems. Shoplifters aren’t taking BART/AC Transit/SF Muni to do their crimes. They’re driving around on cold/hot plated cars, usually a rental with stolen plates. There’s more cameras on those trains and buses than a Tesla.

I’ve taken that water taxi before with my bike. I rather liked it but I don’t see how long it can operate. It’s certainly a lot quicker than waiting for AC Transit’s 51A which is always delayed at two choke points - Downtown Oakland due to traffic/parking in the bus lane and Fruitvale BART since it’s next to a very active Union Pacific right of way used by Amtrak(Capitol Corridor, San Joaquins, Coast Starlight) and freight movements. I drive as little as possible in Oakland - not just the risk of getting broken into but the amount of stuff I see happening in cars and $5 says no one has insurance.

 

[Number_35]

Nothing of value to anyone in this world is, "free". Politicians use that word when they want to give something to their voters to bribe them, under the ruse that it is, "free". But in reality it means they have shifted the means of how it will be paid for to someone else.

There are all kinds of examples of this. "Free" healthcare. "Free" housing. "Free" education. Or in this case, "free" transportation. The crime isn't that they keep doing this. The crime is people continue to believe it. Mostly because they don't care who is paying for it, just as long as it isn't them.

I tend to agree with you. It's more accurate to say that there is (or should be) no user-pay component than to say that something is (or should be) free.

Free university, as is often touted here, would literally mean someone would have to donate the land, buildings, and other infrastructure, the public and private utilities would have to donate the water, electricity, and natural gas, and all the staff would have to work for free. By free, advocates really mean that the students would not have to pay any tuition.

One can argue whether or not having "free" services is a public good. I think that some are*, and some aren't. These things should be a matter of public debate, and perhaps decided by referenda.

* I like that my use of the roads and sidewalks, including snow clearing and repairs, is "free" - that is, paid for in part by the taxes I pay (property taxes, federal income tax, provincial income tax, gasoline taxes, and general consumption taxes). It would be a pain to pay a user fee for these things.

 

[PandaBear]

I tend to agree with you. It's more accurate to say that there is (or should be) no user-pay component than to say that something is (or should be) free.

Free university, as is often touted here, would literally mean someone would have to donate the land, buildings, and other infrastructure, the public and private utilities would have to donate the water, electricity, and natural gas, and all the staff would have to work for free. By free, advocates really mean that the students would not have to pay any tuition.

One can argue whether or not having "free" services is a public good. I think that some are*, and some aren't. These things should be a matter of public debate, and perhaps decided by referenda.

* I like that my use of the roads and sidewalks, including snow clearing and repairs, is "free" - that is, paid for in part by the taxes I pay (property taxes, federal income tax, provincial income tax, gasoline taxes, and general consumption taxes). It would be a pain to pay a user fee for these things.

About Free: I have in the past vote for free stuff to others even if I don't use it because that reduce congestion and competition for parking, and if done right improve property value where I'm at. Sure it is not free but I get something out of it as well. I would imagine the local residents vote for it even if they don't use it. I probably won't vote for it if I am in Dallas but Alameda has some traffic problem, and it is good for them.

People vote to pay more for property tax if it improve their local property value as well, we do it all the time and that sometimes turn a school district from 6 to 7 (obviously that alone won't turn a 6 into a 10). It is also a way to compartmentalize like minded parents as well when more school rating focused parents get into the same area whereas the more tax focused parents get into another.

 

[Number_35]

About Free: I have in the past vote for free stuff to others even if I don't use it because that reduce congestion and competition for parking, and if done right improve property value where I'm at. Sure it is not free but I get something out of it as well. I would imagine the local residents vote for it even if they don't use it. I probably won't vote for it if I am in Dallas but Alameda has some traffic problem, and it is good for them.

People vote to pay more for property tax if it improve their local property value as well, we do it all the time and that sometimes turn a school district from 6 to 7 (obviously that alone won't turn a 6 into a 10). It is also a way to compartmentalize like minded parents as well when more school rating focused parents get into the same area whereas the more tax focused parents get into another.

Good points!

I worked with a man who used to argue that he shouldn't have to pay school taxes because he didn't have children.

My counter arguments were:

1. We agree to pay for public services for the greater good of society at large, even if we don't use those services, and

2. An equivalent argument would be me arguing that, because I didn't drive to work, I should be allowed to withhold that portion of my taxes that went to maintaining the roads between my house and my workplace. Again, it's all about the greater good.