I look at it like this. It is obviously a cheaper product to produce. If it were as good as metal, or superior to metal endcaps............all filters would use cardboard. But they don't.
Fram Toughguard
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I've never personally had or herad of a Fram failure.
But for me, the less paper/cardboard in my oil path, the better. Plus Wix's bypass valve is IMHO 100% better..
Everyone's got an opinion though. Obviously they are not THAT bad; People are sue-happy these days..You'd figure they'd get raped hard if there were large amounts of failures.
But for me, the less paper/cardboard in my oil path, the better. Plus Wix's bypass valve is IMHO 100% better..
Everyone's got an opinion though. Obviously they are not THAT bad; People are sue-happy these days..You'd figure they'd get raped hard if there were large amounts of failures.
It almost seems like an urban legend that perpetuates itself although its backed up a bit by people's observations wheter true or not since cardboard is not equated as a long lasting material. Personally I'm indifferent, my car spent its first 100k using Fram's (I supplied to dealer with free oil change you pay for OEM or bring filter). It now has 200k problem free miles.
typically fram pays out even before it goes to court. I know someone who has had a fram filter fail twice on them resulting in the replacement of their engine, twice.
IOW, if you want to keep your car's engine like new, use a fram filter and you're almost bound to get a new one!
IOW, if you want to keep your car's engine like new, use a fram filter and you're almost bound to get a new one!
Failure, of the cardboard directly, I don't know. But I've seen many instances when the cardboard allows the ADBV to fail.quote:
Originally posted by Bamaro:
That begs the question, have the cardboard end caps been shown to cause a problem?
-T
The orange Fram filter also has (or had) a metal to metal anti-drainback valve that always leaks. The next Fram filter up the line (gray) has a rubber anti-drainback valve. So obviously they did things in the orange one to make it cheaper.
While they make a cheap filter, they have top rate marketing.
Fram also hypes the SAE806 single pass efficiency test rather than the multi-pass which is more like real world use.
While they make a cheap filter, they have top rate marketing.
Fram also hypes the SAE806 single pass efficiency test rather than the multi-pass which is more like real world use.
As far as I know......Fram has allways used nitrile for the ADBV in their orange filter. The grey toughgard filter uses silicone. I have never seen a metal ADBV in any filter. Although you can see the metal endcap on filters without any ADBV.
FRAM® Tough Guard™ filter with the SureGrip® feature
If you're doing a fair amount of off-roading or tow a trailer frequently you need to pay special attention to your engine's cleanliness and use products formulated for these tough driving conditions.
FRAM® Tough Guard™ filter protects your engine when operating in such tough conditions as:
Extreme hot or cold
Stop-and-go traffic
Unusually dirty roads
Heavy loads and towing
How Does it Work?
The FRAM® Tough Guard™ oil filter features a number of advanced characteristics including:
1. Screen-over by-pass valve: Provides back-up filtration for the times when the filter might become clogged in extremely dusty or dirty conditions or when oil flows through the by-pass valve during cold start-ups. The screen provides added protection and insurance against larger, problematic particles of dirt until you change your filter!
2. Synthetic glass and cellulose media: The most advanced feature is the filter media which is a combination of synthetic glass and cellulose uniquely formulated for top-rated efficiency for the life of the filter. Tough Guard filter has even more synthetic glass and cellulose than FRAM® Extra Guard® filter for an even greater life and efficiency with an SPE of 98%.
3. Silicone anti-drainback valve: This design allows the filter to retain oil when your vehicle is turned off so your engine benefits from a filter full of oil at startup. Constructed of silicone, the gasket remains flexible and continues to perform even in extreme heat.
4. PTFE-coated exterior gasket: Reduces friction making it easier when removing the filter.
If you're doing a fair amount of off-roading or tow a trailer frequently you need to pay special attention to your engine's cleanliness and use products formulated for these tough driving conditions.
FRAM® Tough Guard™ filter protects your engine when operating in such tough conditions as:
Extreme hot or cold
Stop-and-go traffic
Unusually dirty roads
Heavy loads and towing
How Does it Work?
The FRAM® Tough Guard™ oil filter features a number of advanced characteristics including:
1. Screen-over by-pass valve: Provides back-up filtration for the times when the filter might become clogged in extremely dusty or dirty conditions or when oil flows through the by-pass valve during cold start-ups. The screen provides added protection and insurance against larger, problematic particles of dirt until you change your filter!
2. Synthetic glass and cellulose media: The most advanced feature is the filter media which is a combination of synthetic glass and cellulose uniquely formulated for top-rated efficiency for the life of the filter. Tough Guard filter has even more synthetic glass and cellulose than FRAM® Extra Guard® filter for an even greater life and efficiency with an SPE of 98%.
3. Silicone anti-drainback valve: This design allows the filter to retain oil when your vehicle is turned off so your engine benefits from a filter full of oil at startup. Constructed of silicone, the gasket remains flexible and continues to perform even in extreme heat.
4. PTFE-coated exterior gasket: Reduces friction making it easier when removing the filter.
I'm not sure where your getting your info here. I have never heard of a Metal ADBV. All Frams use an identical design for their ADBV. The cheap filter uses nitrile, the others use silicone. They all have a poor design, thin material and no inner support.
Are you refering to the bypass valve? The only bypass valve I've seen on Frams are the plastic ones.
-T
I went to Pep Boys to get two Fram Tough Guard filters (coupon 2 @ $6.00)for my upcoming autoRX treatment of my 200,000 plus miles Aerostar AWD 4.0L. Looks to be new stock. Box says 99% muliti-pass efficiency SAE test J1858 for particles >20 microns. Also, they were Made in USA
[ March 30, 2004, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: tenderloin ]
[ March 30, 2004, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: tenderloin ]
Yay for industrial sabotage! Another good reason for Socialism/Communism!quote:
Originally posted by tenderloin:
Also, they were Made in USA
I have actualy seen many fram filter center tubes collaps. Also I have seen the media punch though the center tubs creating a nice hole, so the filter rendered useless. The end caps are extremely restrictive, oil probably bypasses the filter 50% of the time.
Fram filters are what I call junk. I would never recommend them in a million years. Go for quailty filters eg. Wix, K&N, Acdelco.
Fram filters are what I call junk. I would never recommend them in a million years. Go for quailty filters eg. Wix, K&N, Acdelco.
ok the frams are obviously built a little on the cheap side, i have been using frams for years and i have never heard of one failing. i just bought a new truck last year so i have been doing research on what the best oil/ filters to use. i have been using fram tough gaurds and mobil 1 5w30 synthetic. after recently joining these forums and reading a giant wealth of great information, i bought a K&N oil filter for my next oil change. the K&N is obviously built much heavier. but is it nesacary? i dont think so, i would compare the difference to cutting my grass with a $1500 murray lawn mower of a $15000 john deere, yes the deere will do it with much more class but the end result is still cut grass. my question is does the fram tough gaurd filter out for damaging particles than a regular filter? it claims 99% SPE, the K&N only claims 90%. no filter i know of has repeatedly failed and destroyed engines, or obviously they wouldnt be in buiiness. i think the main focus should be on how well they perform. you pay more for a premium filter on the assumption that it will make your engine last longer.
the k&n filter is to continuously filter and not bypass, even at high RPM's. That's why it's a racing filter. If you want to get a filter that will filter well buy a Pure One or Mobil 1.
The fram filter media does do a good job of filtering. Unfortunantly, every other aspect of the filter is a joke; they put less media in the filter than any other company, the centertube 'floats' within the design, the adbv is a joke, the bv's spring tension inspires the bv to operate wide open whenever it feels like it.
So could the fram filtering media be a decent filter? Yes, and it is. They've just failed in every other aspect of filter design.
[ March 31, 2004, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Thomas Pyrek ]
The fram filter media does do a good job of filtering. Unfortunantly, every other aspect of the filter is a joke; they put less media in the filter than any other company, the centertube 'floats' within the design, the adbv is a joke, the bv's spring tension inspires the bv to operate wide open whenever it feels like it.
So could the fram filtering media be a decent filter? Yes, and it is. They've just failed in every other aspect of filter design.
[ March 31, 2004, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Thomas Pyrek ]
I suggest you read some of the filter write ups, http://www.lesabret.com/filters/filter.html
As for your lawn mower statement, $15000, is a little much. A compairable John Deere to your $1500 Murray is more like $2000, but that's a little
-T
You're right, the K&N maybe overkill for quite a few applications, but I wouldn't automatically assume that Fram is a great price/performance point to switch too!
If you have a GM or Ford product, the AC or Motorcraft filters are significantly better built than the Fram from the same money.
It is somewhat controversial, but I'd suggest that at least in a good number of applications, the $2 store brand purolators or SuperTechs are better than the Frams!
If you have a GM or Ford product, the AC or Motorcraft filters are significantly better built than the Fram from the same money.
It is somewhat controversial, but I'd suggest that at least in a good number of applications, the $2 store brand purolators or SuperTechs are better than the Frams!
I would say that in every application I've seen the ST is better. The filter media is identicle to the delco. In addition to it being freer flowing they also put more media in than the fram. I wouldn't be suprised of half the amount of bypass has happening with an ST over a fram, but then again, that's my entirely uneducation opinion.
http://www.bergware.net/tmbwww/oilfilter89honda.html
I agree, in the Merc study, the ST and AC had different media even though the physical characteristics of the filter were very close.
http://home.earthlink.net/~memphis3/mercfilters/merc.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~memphis3/mercfilters/merc.htm
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