Ford loses 3 billion on EV
- Thread starter Trav
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"Carbon Credits" were / are nothing more than a money making scheme that paid for nothing. Pollution is pollution. It isn't any better regardless of who pays for it, when that cash goes into someone's pocket.
Tesla is nothing more than a new company introducing a product that has extremely limited use for the overall masses. Even if it becomes immensely successful. It doesn't deserve government money any more than Solyndra did. It's also not a company that's been in business for over a century, and could endanger the economy if it were to collapse.
The government is supporting EV's because it fits their progressive, liberal agenda. It's the only reason Solyndra received government cash. They were even warned that money would never be recovered. No matter, they flushed it right down the drain. Again, not economically driven, but to support a "green" agenda that has nothing to do with being "green". EV's are the same.
My reference to WW II is to show how long debt takes to be paid back. It was a necessary debt. Tesla was / is anything but. If their product is so wonderful, they should not only be turning a profit on their own. They should have more than 1% of the market if they expect to compete.
Simply put, a good product does not need government financial backing. People will line up to buy it. This has NEVER been the case with EV's. And it never will be. Simply because they don't, and can't work for the bulk of the population.
Proof of this is the fact the majority of EV's owners own at least one or more ICE vehicles. Why? I don't own any incandescent light bulbs any longer. No one has picture tube TV's or computer monitors anymore. Because they've all been replaced by something much better, and cheaper. You cannot make that claim with EV's.
And you never will because of the very nature of their design...... They cost more and deliver less. Batteries that don't go very far, and take too long to charge. Assuming you can even find a place to charge them.
That might change in years or decades to come. But it never will until such a battery / charging infrastructure is in place. That will cost billions. Where is that money supposed to come from? More government handouts?
The fact is it's not changing. At least nowhere near fast enough to support an EV market that the pro EV supporters and the government are currently pushing for. And there is no certain indication it ever will be.
No one with an ounce of common sense would argue the entire nations electrical grid needs to be drastically improved before anyone should even be thinking about massive EV sales. That in itself will take trillions of dollars this country does not possess.
If you are all for giving away government money, that's where you should start. The fact is we can easily live without EV's for decades to come. But we can't with a failing power grid that is getting worse by the day.
I think most people in government/military, and business forecasting are basing their planning and policies and investments on these scenarios.
1. Fossil fuels will eventually be a niche fuel for specific uses.
2. Electric vehicles and portable electricity storage is the technology of the future, and the US should try to lead technological development, and then profit in this field, rather than be left behind.
3. The rapid recent climate change is very likely caused by the exponential increase of CO2 emissions and corresponding rise in atmospheric concentrations, and at some point the world will agree to slash CO2 emissions to near zero, at any cost.(I think once major crop lands suffer severe enough weather to consistently drop global yields).
So it will be better to have our economy with the technologies ready to go carbon neutral, so the switch to a carbon neutral economy can be made with minimal disruptions.
Sure this costs lot of money, but the US consumers spend around $500 billion on gas per year, and in 2022 spent around $140 billion on just new vehicles, so there is lots of money being spent on transportation, and enough to develop new technologies, and upgrade the power grid.
Also the fossil fuel industry is subsidized to a large degree, even though its a mature industry and likely to become mostly obsolete in the future.
The American automakers have massive debts due to outlays to retirees and their families. I have not seen any recent numbers but at one point the budgets for retiree pensions and healthcare exceeded the budgets for the present labor force. With the baby boomers retiring that has to have a huge effect on the bottom line.
I'd expect Ford to lose money while building out infrastructure. No surprise here.
Whats more important is that their model yields products lines that can be profitable.
They are going to have a hard time being profitable with the designs they are using and I'm including the sales model not just the cars.
Giving between 10 and 30% away to a channel leaves little room for Ford.
On carbon credits GM should have gotten there first and been the one to take that money.
Whats more important is that their model yields products lines that can be profitable.
They are going to have a hard time being profitable with the designs they are using and I'm including the sales model not just the cars.
Giving between 10 and 30% away to a channel leaves little room for Ford.
On carbon credits GM should have gotten there first and been the one to take that money.
You have absolutely nothing to support that claim. It is nothing more than wishful thinking.
Tesla has been making EV's for over 15 years, (since 2008). Much of it with government cash. And they, along with everyone else who is making them, has failed to capture even a full 2% of the market in all of that time. So at that rate when are fossil fuels going to become a "niche"? 50 years?...... A hundred?..... Never?
EV's will never capture even 25% of the market until their price, range, and charging time drastically improves. THEN, you have to have an electrical grid that will support them........ The exact same way the "niche" gasoline market and infrastructure supports ICE, and has supported ICE for over a century.
How long, and how much money do you think that will take? And more importantly, where is it going to come from? The government printing presses? If they try that we'll have an economy that resembles Zimbabwe. How many EV's are sold there?
That's why they're closing some Ford dealerships down eh
Tesla paid back their government loan in 2010, nine years early.
Carbon credits are available to all EV makers, Not that I agree with the concept, but if other automakers don't qualify for them the same way Tesla does, too bad. They had better up their game.
Also, the profit margin that Ford generates on their ICE vehicles isn't enough to fund their EV development. You have to consider how far behind they are from Tesla and how much money it is going to take to even catch up let alone be truly competitive.
So what can we expect from Ford ? Kludges of existing designs, cost cutting, mediocre performance, costly recalls and continuing losses. I don't see anything in Ford's past 50 years that suggests anything different. And the elephant in the room is those unfunded pension liabilities. Maybe Ford is praying for a bailout like the student loan forgiveness but on steroids. Big political donations by the unions can buy a lot of taxpayer money in return.
Carbon credits are available to all EV makers, Not that I agree with the concept, but if other automakers don't qualify for them the same way Tesla does, too bad. They had better up their game.
Also, the profit margin that Ford generates on their ICE vehicles isn't enough to fund their EV development. You have to consider how far behind they are from Tesla and how much money it is going to take to even catch up let alone be truly competitive.
So what can we expect from Ford ? Kludges of existing designs, cost cutting, mediocre performance, costly recalls and continuing losses. I don't see anything in Ford's past 50 years that suggests anything different. And the elephant in the room is those unfunded pension liabilities. Maybe Ford is praying for a bailout like the student loan forgiveness but on steroids. Big political donations by the unions can buy a lot of taxpayer money in return.
I don’t know why anyone could fault that approach. Ford had me. I was getting ready to buy a Mach-E too. Then the 11 months straight of issues I had with our Ford Edge. I sought other brands. You’re right, they have work to do on some basic mechanical stuff.
And look how many of them very quickly went broke and went out of business!
Ford breaks out its EV Business Unit financials. Nobody else does. Guess the others have something to hide?
CEO Farley is making the tough decisions to keep Ford meaningful going forward. This great American company is dealing with quality issues; I hope they get there.
"Ford Model e" is operating in start up mode, just like Tesla did and every other new venture does. The Ford Blue group is doing well financially.
All the naysayers are handing China our future. The Tesla Fremont plant is the biggest auto factory in America by both production and workers. Whatever investment was made has paid off handsomely. Under Farley's stewardship, perhaps Ford will contribute even more to our economy.
CEO Farley is making the tough decisions to keep Ford meaningful going forward. This great American company is dealing with quality issues; I hope they get there.
"Ford Model e" is operating in start up mode, just like Tesla did and every other new venture does. The Ford Blue group is doing well financially.
All the naysayers are handing China our future. The Tesla Fremont plant is the biggest auto factory in America by both production and workers. Whatever investment was made has paid off handsomely. Under Farley's stewardship, perhaps Ford will contribute even more to our economy.
No kidding, Kudos to Jim for being transparent.
What do you think is the story behind this swing ?
On spending trillions do we want to spend it building our own infrastructure?
Or continue to send it offshore and to protect it - I'd rather spend it at home.
You mean selling $100,000 dollar pickup trucks ,hasn't made up the difference ?.,,,,
Someone keeps buying them for some reason, well not all top trim models, but they're just not cheap regardless. The last new F150 I bought was in 2017 and was a loaded XLT for $42k. Sticker was $50k. I remember thinking at the time that it was nuts that a $50k truck didn't have leather. Now they're more expensive and the big discounts are no longer there.
American auto makers..... well that leaves Chrysler out...They sure aint American anymore and have not been for awhile....
Translated, even though I posted on this already. Maybe its to complicated for a reporter (if there is such as thing anymore)
Ford ICE vehicles expected to turn a 10 to 13 billion dollar profit this year. Ford to invest up to 3 billion of that profit in expanding its EV business.
Ford ICE vehicles expected to turn a 10 to 13 billion dollar profit this year. Ford to invest up to 3 billion of that profit in expanding its EV business.
Tesla produced cars at a loss for over ten years
In the same ten year period that Tesla lost money every year Ford never lost any money and only recently lost money 2 years in and coming out of Covid.
Gosh, the lack of facts in this posts are scary in a forum like this. Instead of everyones comments why not post facts like this on Tesla?
inconvenient truth?
Well, here it is side by side (and let's not forget Tesla lost money every year before this chart even goes back)@mosaud1998 how many dealerships does Ford have compared to Tesla? Lets stick to facts like the above.
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VW increased BEV sales 42% in Q1 YOY. They are experiencing the same startup costs as Ford and everyone else. Plus, VW has the huge problem that most legacy car companies have, their factories are scattered in distant locations. This is a procurement and management nightmare. Management bloat. Waaaaay to many suppliers making quality control a nightmare. Old inefficient factories. Then there is that little dealership sales model... The VW Group is a highly complex company, hardly typical. Highly political and Porsche family driven. They canned Diess because he could not transform VW fast enough. Hardly his fault for many years of management decisions but understandable.
This is why Ford Model e BU is the right move; they operate as a separate company enabling autonomy. In time this should serve them well.
You are comparing a start up company with a 100 year old company.Tesla produced cars at a loss for over ten years
In the same ten year period that Tesla lost money every year Ford never lost any money and only recently lost money 2 years in and coming out of Covid.
Gosh, the lack of facts in this posts are scary in a forum like this. Instead of everyones comments why not post facts like this on Tesla?
inconvenient truth?
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@mosaud1998 how many dealerships does Ford have compared to Tesla? Lets stick to facts like the above.
And Tesla does not have dealerships. Ford is moving toward the Tesla direct sales model, another smart, perhaps necessary, move.