Ford 6 Speed Dual Clutch Auto problems?

[Danh]

Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Originally Posted By: Danh
I own a DCT-equipped Focus and can tell you there's a ton of truth in these stories. Unlike VW, Ford uses a dry clutch, which seems to be the source of its problems.

I can't believe the DCT will survive into the next generation Focus.

It didn't - Ford quietly changed to a six speed conventional automatic in the Focus but certain other models still have a Getrag DCT.

My VW Polo (1 yr old now) has a 7-speed DSG with dry clutches and it works just fine. Takes-offs are perfect, slow or fast, and shifts are nearly imperceptible. I've never even felt the need to use manual or sport mode because it's always been responsive to my driving requirements.

Perhaps there are issues with the way Ford or Getrag implemented the dry clutches? The biggest design difference from the 7-spd VW DSG is that the DCT uses geared electric motors to shift gears while the VW units are hydraulic. The slow response time of the motors compared with hydraulics must be difficult to deal with in firmware. VW also has had more time to sort out their firmware and we all know there were a few teething issues. The 7-spd differs from the 6-speed wet-clutch DSG in that the hydraulic oil is separate from the gear oil and neither have a change interval. The 6-sp has a 40,000 km change interval.

In the meantime, conventional autos are getting really good of late with more speeds combined with lock-up, and I suspect may overtake automated manuals in the future.


Ford may have changed in New Zealand, but North American Focuses still come with the Getrag DCT.

 

[hpb]

SumpChump, I'd avoid the Powershift at all costs. Friends recently had a (I think) 2010 Golf, in which the DSG transmission failed. After several months in the workshop, VW finally agreed to fix it under warranty. The day they collected the Golf, they drove straight to the Ford dealer and traded it - on a Powershift equipped Focus. I couldn't believe they'd jump straight from the frying pan and into the fire! And already, they've had it back for transmission issues, such as the ones described above. The answer? "They're all like that."

I'm a Ford guy through and through, and though it pains me to say it, the Powershift transmission is rubbish. Like KiwiMe said, Australian Focus now comes with a conventional 6 speed auto, which has to tell you something.

 

[GiveMeAVowel]

The Focus and Fiesta are really good cars but you should by the manual (if in the USA and Europe) if you want a reliable and trouble free transmission, the manual unit in those models from Ford are some of the best on any mass production car.

If you are lucky enough to live in AUS/NZ you have the
traditional slushbox as an option on the Focus....but I would imagine that the Fiesta still has the DCT even in Australia?

How about the Fusion/Mondeo in Australia can you still get that model with the six speed manual transmission?

 

[ram_man]

I had a 14 focus manual trans it was an absolutely awful terrible car!! And the dual clutch trans is junk when I worked at the ford dealer as a tech and we always had a waiting list of focuses and fiestas that needed trans work.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Fiesta (avail here in gasoline only)- DCT (i.e. Powershift)
Focus hatch (avail here in gasoline only) - 6-sp conventional auto
Focus wagon diesel - DCT
Mondeo gasoline and diesel - DCT
Ecosport (avail here in gasoline only) - DCT
Kuga gasoline - 6-sp conventional auto
Kuga diesel - DCT


Forum posts I've read on UK boards suggests that diesel turbo lag exasperates the DCT shifting.

 

[GiveMeAVowel]

Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Fiesta (avail here in gasoline only)- DCT (i.e. Powershift)
Focus hatch (avail here in gasoline only) - 6-sp conventional auto
Focus wagon diesel - DCT
Mondeo gasoline and diesel - DCT
Ecosport (avail here in gasoline only) - DCT
Kuga gasoline - 6-sp conventional auto
Kuga diesel - DCT


Forum posts I've read on UK boards suggests that diesel turbo lag exasperates the DCT shifting.


@Kiwi:

So NO manual gearboxes in any of those models in Australia??

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
So NO manual gearboxes in any of those models in Australia??

Well, I didn't check NZ offerings since the subject of the thread is the DCT. Aus is probably similar since we normally share the specs.

So, the Fiesta, yes, not the Focus, Kuga or Mondeo. Both Fiesta and Focus STs are manual only, as is the Focus RS.

 

[Garak]

Maybe this is how the "Save the Manuals" campaign will eventually succeed - by attrition thanks to hatred of CVTs and dual clutch automatics.

 

[hpb]

Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
So NO manual gearboxes in any of those models in Australia??

Well, I didn't check NZ offerings since the subject of the thread is the DCT. Aus is probably similar since we normally share the specs.

So, the Fiesta, yes, not the Focus, Kuga or Mondeo. Both Fiesta and Focus STs are manual only, as is the Focus RS.


In Australia, certain models of Fiesta, Focus and Kuga are available with a manual transmission. And I believe the PETROL Mondeo uses a conventional 6 speed automatic, while the DIESEL uses the Powershift.

 

[artificialist]

My dad had to rent one in 2014. It felt like driving a manual transmission car with the clutch fully engaged at 5 MPH.

Meanwhile I have a much earlier rally car, and it works more smoothly. I don't understand it.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

My 7-speed DSG only uses first to start rolling and goes into 2nd quickly, perhaps in less than a second.

On downshifting it does not drop below 2nd unless I come to a complete stop.

Presumably a very low first gear is how they get a design life of 200,000 km out of the clutch assembly.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

The Power[censored] has been recalled numerous times. They should just replace them with real automatic transmissions or CVT's.

A DCT without paddles is TERRIBLE, because you NEED them to get the most out of a DCT.

 

[Nick R]

Mine was pretty bad at first. It had the seals, and clutch pack replaced at 30,000 miles. the TCM reflash at the time really helped, but after a while, it went back to not launching smoothly at all. It's not even that it was bad, so much as inconsistent. You just didn't know how it was going to behave that day.

However, about 59,000 miles, I brought mine in again for a TCM reflash, which included new TCM and PCM software, and a TSB for the early-warning software to warn of potential TCM failure.

The best part about this was the new TCM software is a million times better. I've put about 5000 miles on it since then, and it's still way better. It creeps perfectly now, as good as any regular automatic. Takeoffs from a stop are much smoother as long as you have consistent throttle application. No more chatter. IT's also much more consistent. It doesn't have "moods" anymore like it did before this flash. They also put it on the tester to test clutch slip, and the clutch is still fine (165RPM, cutoff for replacement is 250RPM)

I'm much happier now than I was before, although still not quite as smooth as a regular automatic.

 

[KrisZ]

I wonder how much will the clutch job cost on these? It doesn't sound like the clutches will last too much past 100k miles.

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Maybe this is how the "Save the Manuals" campaign will eventually succeed - by attrition thanks to hatred of CVTs and dual clutch automatics.

This is how to save the manuals...

https://www.teepublic.com/show/272973-modern-day-theft-deterrent

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Maybe this is how the "Save the Manuals" campaign will eventually succeed - by attrition thanks to hatred of CVTs and dual clutch automatics.

Now that Honda , Subaru and Toyota are making reliable CVTs - I see CVT being a viable option. I would rather have a CVT than a stepped automatic or dual clutch in an application where I would want one (traffic). It wouldn't shift itself to death. Much less complicated.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

VAG has made over 12 million DSGs as of Dec 2014. They probably know what they are doing.

Next year brings a 10-speed version of the dry clutch unit.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
This is how to save the manuals...

That's true.

For here, though, there are simply enough keys left in ignitions to keep the thieves in business, anyhow.

Miller88: Yes, I'm being unduly harsh on the CVT. It certainly does have its place, as does a dual clutch automatic. It seems that, however, application, user, and equipment aren't always matched too well.