Fisker Battery - 500 mile range, 1 minute charging

[Linctex]

"Supercapacitor Breakthrough Allows Electric Vehicle Charging In Seconds"
http://www.hybridcars.com/supercapacitor-breakthrough-allows-electric-vehicle-charging-in-seconds/

"Tesla CEO: Super-capacitors Trump Electric Car Batteries"
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1057301_tesla-ceo-super-capacitors-trump-electric-car-batteries

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"Graphene-Based Supercapacitors Could Lead To Battery-Free Electric Cars Within 5 Years"
http://www.iflscience.com/technology/gra...within-5-years/

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https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/221531/supercapacitors-as-car-batteries

 

[oil_film_movies]

There is an easy way to do the math.
Take the claim "500 miles, 1 minute recharge": You need a 150 kWH battery to do 500 miles, based on Tesla P100D range and power consumption extrapolation.
Add around 50 kWH to recharging since heat is generated as waste during recharging, giving you 200 kWH you must supply from the grid.

If you ran 200 kW for 1 hour (200 kWH), you could recharge it. At this 1 hour charging, at say, 1,000 volts, you'd need 200 amps. OK, possible there.

Now if you do this in 1 minute as claimed you'd need 12,000 amps at 1,000 volts. Wow. And remember there is I2R heating effects. Thor couldn't even summon a lightning bolt big enough to do that (yes, I saw Thor Ragnarok last night, and I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express....).

 

[IndyIan]

I guess if you charge from a capacitor on the grid to the capacitor in the car, all these big numbers may technically possible with today's grid... If not practical or cost effective real soon.
Shannow, do you know of any industry that uses big capacitors to run big electrical equipment? Trickle charging a capacitor would be cheaper than paying for the peak usage fees to the electrical utility. Years ago when GE large motors in Peterborough tested something big they used to call up the utility to schedule it before hand to make sure they were going to have the power they needed for the duration of the test. Now electricity costs so much and it might be cost effective to use some sort of storage on site?

 

[raytseng]

one enhancement is your assumption of putting 500miles into a tesla models. youve seen a models. its a big car with performance first. by no means is it power efficient.

if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, youd imagine a fuel sipping small car lile a smart car or similar ecocar as the ideal vehicle to satisfy their claim. that probably is 3x on the energy requirement alone (e.g. think how many energy it takes to get a smart car 500miles versus a big sedan).
then weight savings for the battery they claim 2.5x so perhaps bump the power requirement to go 500miles to 4x.

So maybe now you are in the ballpark of only needing 50kwh to go 500miles instead of 200kwh.

the current supercharger system goes at 120 or 135 kw. so you can get your 50kwh in 15min. they need 15x increase which is not as crazy as the 60x increase.

say they chsnge their estumate to 5min, which is a huge relaxation of technical claim but hits the threshold to becoming a challenger of the status quo.
most humans can wait 5min to get 500miles. They aren't as annoyed by 5min to 1 min as 30in to 5min.
Then that's only 3x improvement or plugging in 3 supercharger cables and becomes reasonable.
sure i changed the clsim to 500miles in 5 min in 5years, but that still sounds pretty cool.

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted By: redbone3
They recharge using "Nano Electrons", they can penetrate between the atoms and move in the battery like a good quarterback against the opposing team.


Yeah baby

Or quantum coupled particles so they can be charged at home while still driving around ...

 

[Win]

Quote:
LOL, they were the ones creating a molten lithium puddle a while ago weren't they ?

Please consider exactly HOW one would get the entire stream of energy to drive anything electric for 500 miles in one minute.


Quote:
but please, do the math on how much energy that takes and run it back...

And you think you can put that much into the battery in one minute?


Quote:
Total energy consumption = 25000 x 60 x 60 x 10 = 900,000,000 Joules = 900 MJ


Quote:
Today's math is the same math as tomorrow's math,


What a bunch of Debbie Downers.

They've obviously got Emmett Lathrop "Doc" Brown, Ph.D., on the payroll, they're gonna make a ton of money off this, and obsolete it overnight when the Mr. Fusion is ready to put on the market.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Redbone, just come out and say it... they appear to be able to move electrons like TB12 moves the ball inside the 2-minute warning.

 

[Shannow]

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/103351/over-10-000-amps

I've Commissioned an H2 Generating plant that ran at "only" 2,000 Amps, and know what size conductors we use for transmitting 20,000 amps...that's why I'm calling the claims rubbish.

You aren't hooking a PIB up to your car to charge it, full stop.

As to innovation...the REAL innovation is how to transfer the energy that they claim without killing anyone with a pacemaker within 20 feet.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I guess if you charge from a capacitor on the grid to the capacitor in the car, all these big numbers may technically possible with today's grid... If not practical or cost effective real soon.
Shannow, do you know of any industry that uses big capacitors to run big electrical equipment? Trickle charging a capacitor would be cheaper than paying for the peak usage fees to the electrical utility. Years ago when GE large motors in Peterborough tested something big they used to call up the utility to schedule it before hand to make sure they were going to have the power they needed for the duration of the test. Now electricity costs so much and it might be cost effective to use some sort of storage on site?


What they've been doing is cogen actually. Generating on-site using natural gas, at least from what I've been reading. At some point, with today's electricity prices, that becomes cheaper.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: raytseng
one enhancement is your assumption of putting 500miles into a tesla models. youve seen a models. its a big car with performance first. by no means is it power efficient.

if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, youd imagine a fuel sipping small car lile a smart car or similar ecocar as the ideal vehicle to satisfy their claim. that probably is 3x on the energy requirement alone (e.g. think how many energy it takes to get a smart car 500miles versus a big sedan).
then weight savings for the battery they claim 2.5x so perhaps bump the power requirement to go 500miles to 4x.

So maybe now you are in the ballpark of only needing 50kwh to go 500miles instead of 200kwh.

the current supercharger system goes at 120 or 135 kw. so you can get your 50kwh in 15min. they need 15x increase which is not as crazy as the 60x increase.

say they chsnge their estumate to 5min, which is a huge relaxation of technical claim but hits the threshold to becoming a challenger of the status quo.
most humans can wait 5min to get 500miles. They aren't as annoyed by 5min to 1 min as 30in to 5min.
Then that's only 3x improvement or plugging in 3 supercharger cables and becomes reasonable.
sure i changed the clsim to 500miles in 5 min in 5years, but that still sounds pretty cool.


The Chevy Volt has a 53 mile electric range on an 18.4kWh battery, which is 2.88 miles per kWh. That yields 174kWh for 500 miles, very close to our Tesla example, and a much smaller car.

I think your posit is a tad optimistic

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The Chevy Volt has a 53 mile electric range on an 18.4kWh battery, which is 2.88 miles per kWh. That yields 174kWh for 500 miles, very close to our Tesla example, and a much smaller car. I think your posit is a tad optimistic

My Tesla example did assume some, but not much, efficiency increase over a full size Tesla. They are quite efficient when driven normally. My 150 kWH would likely be OK for a car the size of the Model 3, with maybe some weight savings from lighter batteries, who knows really.... This Fisker stuff is probably a myth anyway.

 

[PandaBear]

The charger will probably bring down the entire city block to charge 500 miles in 1 minutes, and has 60 connectors on the car to the charger with 1/2 gauge cable each. The battery would be so hot it'll boil off the coolants.

 

[UncleDave]

3 years later neither fisker or anyone is remotely close the pipe dream they presented.

 

[JimPghPA]

I think that maybe one thing that is not being considered is that a fast swap system could significantly reduce the cost of owning electric vehicles and improve the efficiency of electric vehicles if: people utilized the fact that on the vast majority of days most vehicles drive a distance that is a small fraction of what electric vehicles are designed to be able to do now days. So if you know that you will only be driving 25 miles maximum each day, then you could enter that information into the vehicle and when you made a stop at a very quick automated battery swap center a battery with that capacity would be quickly swapped into your vehicle every day. And if you were going to be taking a longer trip the next day you would enter that info and a larger battery would be swapped in. This way most days the vehicle would carry less weight, and most of the time the batteries that have there life used would be much smaller. When you were going to go on a long trip a larger battery with more capacity would be put in. And when you went on really long trips you could do multiple swaps of large batteries during the trip.

The cost of owning would decrease because in general you would be putting wear and tear on a smaller battery, and therefore when the life of these batteries was used up, a smaller battery would have been used up, and a smaller battery would be needed to replace the used up one.

And most of the time slow charging could be used which is more efficient and puts less wear on the battery.

Also when not attached to the vehicle the system where it is charged could supply a much more powerful battery cooling system because it could be larger since its weight would not be part of the vehicle.

And the vehicle would be more efficient because most of the time it would be carrying less weight.

And since the vehicle would in general be using up a smaller battery the owner would be paying for the depreciation of a smaller battery most of the time.

 

[blingo]

NIO arranged some swapping in China a few years ago and arranges "battery as a service" now including some swapping options.

 

[Ws6]

LOL, they were the ones creating a molten lithium puddle a while ago weren't they ?

Please consider exactly HOW one would get the entire stream of energy to drive anything electric for 500 miles in one minute.

Look at the cables that connect your house to the grid...nope.

This stuff is great while someone else is paying your wages and you make ridiculous promises.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos...E95G02L20130617

Oh, I fully agree, but we could charge a lot FASTER than we are with LiIon. 1 minute may be theoretical, but in reality it will still kill current tech. IF it works.

 

[UncleDave]

NIO arranged some swapping in China a few years ago and arranges "battery as a service" now including some swapping options.

The thought of inheriting a poorly maintained used up pack isnt compelling- at least to me.

 

[blingo]

Probably not hugely important between charging at job locations, homes and quick charge stations. But they built up corridors in China and they're finding cooperation with fuel stations here it seems.

 

[PandaBear]

Fisker was trying to cook the book when they said you can charge it in 1 min. Heck even USSR with their military research may not be able to do it.

China with their central planning might be able to pull off a battery swap standard. They have a lot of nationalized companies, gas stations, etc. If they have a "battery asset exchange" between battery owners, gas stations, vehicle owners, fleet owners, they might be able to keep track of battery, charges, usage, and automatically deduct residual energy when the drivers pull into a station for a swap, regardless of residual charges, then the service fee, energy used, battery leases, etc. The battery can be mortgaged by the banks and packaged into investment that pay dividends to the investors, like real estates or airplane leases.

If they got that resolved they can be as easy to work with as propane tank swapping in the US, they can also standardized the battery into 20lb 1 cu ft modules that owners swap out in retail stores.

 

[Job]

I have been looking at power poles when walking the dog. She walks slow so i have plenty of time. Never really thought about it before but a 120000 volt line means divide the amps by 1000 that are carried on the 120 v lines. If a home draws 100 amps on each leg its only .2 amps on the main line. Maybe it is possible someday with different solid state batteries and higher voltage to make evs workable for more people. A 4800kw charge rate at 240v means 20 amps on the main line at 1000:1. The main lines can have higher voltages than that. I think in my example a 120 kwhr car battery could be charged in 1.5 minutes. I dont know if the numbers are right just doing them in my head. I‘m tired its night time, and the dog wants to go out and do her business. This Fazebook telling strangers mundane things is great isnt it.