FAQ on differences between Group III and Group IV

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Excellent article. I vote to place as a Sticky.




And place this one as a Sticky too.

LUBE REPORT ARTICLE

How long will it take EOM's marketing to figure out a way to bamboozle the consumer into thinking that their 'superior single feed' Group III base stock is better than other's Group III blends?
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Note this dispels any myths that Group IIIs are automatically equal to or better than group IVs just by blending in an addpack.
 
I know many people here don't have desk jobs that allow them to study oils when they want to, but sure seems like many people don't read studies. A very good study done in Europe found that Group 3 oils with great additives can outperform Group 4 with ok additives. My desperation results from same old stuff being said on these forums which goes along these lines: "Man, Oil A uses Group 3 so it's weaker than Oil B that uses no Group 3." Yeah right.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post709187
 
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I know many people here don't have desk jobs that allow them to study oils when they want to, but sure seems like many people don't read studies. A very good study done in Europe found that Group 3 oils with great additives can outperform Group 4 with ok additives. My desperation results from same old stuff being said on these forums which goes along these lines: "Man, Oil A uses Group 3 so it's weaker than Oil B that uses no Group 3." Yeah right.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post709187




And it looks to me like some people don't understand why some are disappointed with oil marketers that deceive people.

Some oil marketers have for a long time held out the banner that "Group III base stocks are manufactured by a refining and extraction process which partially removes undesirable molecules that are present in the feed", while "PAO base stocks are chemically synthesized and therefore, do not contain undesirable species" thus implying that an all PAO formulation is inherently superior, and charged it's customers a premium for this "superior" product.

That paper from the CZECH REPUBLIC was circa 1999-2000. Are the Czechs so much more advanced in lubrication technology that they discovered Group III based lubricants could be made every bit as good as Group IV based products way before a billion dollar multi-national corporation?

But seriously, to point to ONE obscure paper produced 6 years ago as the definitive answer as to the capabilities of various basestocks is a bit of a stretch in my book.
 
You are right I don't understand why people believed all grades of M1 Supersyn to be made of only Groups 4 and 5. Never trust an oil company's marketing department or tech reps! Those who did feel like fools and rightly should. Suck it up and learn from it.
Best oil is best basestocks with best additives. But slightly sub-par basestocks with superior additives outperforms best basestocks with ok additives. Proving that second sentence once proves it once and for all whether it was 6 years or ago or 1 month ago. It doesn't take advanced lubrication technology to determine that, just the buying of different brands of oils and anaylyzing them with various techniques in the lab.
 
In the same light, that paper doesn't prove a superior oil can't be produced with superior basestocks. It's just as foolish to assume that everyone today is using the best add-packs with inferior basestocks from a snapshot taken 6 years ago given that numerous requirements have evolved over time.

Further, how one goes from a few properties like viscosity stability due to oxidation, insolubles, and TAN number to declaring some lubricants definitely superior is beyond me. How about the whole gambit of ACEA and API tests? Should we throw those away and let these Czechs rank oil quality?

And finally, even EOM warned that Group III basestocks have a much greater variability and thus makes the process of formulating them for superior performance much more difficult task. (see article above in Lube Report)
 
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Thank you for your inquiry,


Question -- Is Mobil 1 a fully synthetic oil?

Answer -- Yes, it is. To meet the demanding requirements of
today's
specifications (and our customers' expectations) Mobil 1 uses
high-performance synthetic fluids, including polyalphaolefins
(PAO),
along
with a proprietary system of additives. In fact, each Mobil 1
viscosity
grade uses a specific combination of synthetic fluids and
selected
additives in order to tailor the viscosity grade to its unique
requirement.



Mobil1 motor oils are not hydrocracked and only use synthetic baseoils,
this is why Mobil 1 motor oils provide unsurpassed protection and
performance in the real world compared to any of our competitor's. Why
do you think Mobil1 is chosen by majority of race teams and high end
manufacturer's in the industry as factory fill?

--
Thank you for choosing ExxonMobil products.
If you need further assistance, please contact ExxonMobil at
1-800-ASK-MOBIL





 
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In the same light, that paper doesn't prove a superior oil can't be produced with superior basestocks.




I tried but cannot untangle the double negative used in that sentence! What does it mean? Does the study prove that a superior oil can be made from superior basestocks? I'd say no. It proves that additives can make up the performance difference between Group 3 and PAO/Group 5 in some important areas that the latter have an advantage.

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It's just as foolish to assume that everyone today is using the best add-packs with inferior basestocks from a snapshot taken 6 years ago given that numerous requirements have evolved over time.





I'm not assuming that. I have not re-read the study to prep for this post, but the truth from the study that I recall is that some of the oils that used only Group 4 and maybe Group 5 showed more breakdown/degradation due to high temps than some that had Group 3 in them. These are areas where Group 4 and 5 excel. We know from other studies that if it were a pure basestock comparison (no additives), this outcome would not happen. Therefore the additive package difference accounts for this behavior by process of elimination. Given the age of the study, the Group 3 used in those oils would be at most only as good as the best Group 3 used today. I hate to quote someone but Tom from NJ has said that the additive package is far more important to oil performance than the basestocks. Additives improve in leaps and bounds; PAO doesn't improve at all (exception is new very high viscosity PAOs); Group 3 improves.

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Further, how one goes from a few properties like viscosity stability due to oxidation, insolubles, and TAN number to declaring some lubricants definitely superior is beyond me.




It's because those are the very important areas in which pure Groups 4 and 5 are slightly superior to pure Group 3. The additives can make up the difference and then some. That still leaves artic use out but that is a niche market. Even Group 2 does a great job of lubricating and forming oil films.

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How about the whole gambit of ACEA and API tests? Should we throw those away and let these Czechs rank oil quality?





No. Engine tests are the best tests and even Group 2 oils with awesome additives have proven to be super performers in engine tests (e.g. API CJ oils). There is a Group 3 Lubromoly oil that meets MB 229.5 spec which requires a nasty set of tests and limits to pass.

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And finally, even EOM warned that Group III basestocks have a much greater variability and thus makes the process of formulating them for superior performance much more difficult task. (see article above in Lube Report)




I read that report. It's quite the conundrum for the consumer to figure out which oil uses the best Group 3's and has a very good matching add pack.
 
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You are right I don't understand why people believed all grades of M1 Supersyn to be made of only Groups 4 and 5.




Because that's what EOM lead them to believe !!

And we had a retired EOM employee and current EOM salesman swaering up and down that it is as true today as it was years ago.




Don't believe any of that poop! The website is very misleading and notice the term "generally" wrt PAO content in synthetics. That opens the door big time. Plus they don't have to walk their own talk because it's legal for them not to. Those two employees' statements are not very helpful IMO. There were many people saying Delvac 1 had x% ester content while its oxidation readings in VOAs were next to zero, indicating it had very little to no ester in it. Stinky Peterson pointed that out in at least one thread. Goes to prove you have to be careful what you believe. The science is the only thing that doesn't lie.
 
Hi Jag,

There was lots of discussion last week at the ICIS-LOR Pan American Base Oil Conference concerning Grp III and GTL base oils. The consensus seems to be that there is a meaningful difference between Grp III and Grp III+ stocks.

The industry seems to accept VI as a good measure of Grp III quality, especially with respect to oxidative stability. This makes sense in that the most stable components of these base oils are the high VI isoparaffinic molecules, and the least stable are the low VI naphthenic components. If one accepts VI as the proxy for oxidative stability, then indeed there is much variation in Grp III stocks in that the VIs range from 120 for minimal products up to 145 for the best, such as the Shell XHVI and XOM Grp III+ products. I think that when people say that Grp III is equivalent to PAO at high temperatures they are referring to the Grp III+ high end of the Grp III oils. And when the base oils are that close, then certainly additives make a bigger difference in the finished oil performance.

Several speakers indicated that GTL introduction might be delayed due to unforeseen economic and political issues. While the large Shell GTL project is slated for 2009/2010 and the XOM for 2011/2012, some speculate that this timetable could slip as far as 2015. If the GTL volume does get significantly delayed, then Grp III stocks will be able to strengthen their market position and competitiveness, making GTL introduction more troublesome. If GTL is not delayed, there could be a glut of Grp III and GTL stocks available in five years, which hopefully will benefit us consumers with lower prices.

Tom
 
Thanks Tom for the info! GTL sounds fascinating. I hope my mentioning you did not bother you. I've been too noisy today, so I'm just going to go back to reading. 427, just to let you know, I wasn't arguing oil with you, just discussing oil with you. You are one of the most knowledgeable posters around that doesn't work in the oil industry (as far as I know)!
 
No problem JAG...I was only debating in good spirit too. And I appreciate your scientific/experimental approach to many subjects.

Tom thanks for your input. You did, as usual, a much better job at getting across a point I was trying to allude too.

P.S. JAG, your right, I don't work in the oil industry, it's more of a hobby for me. But I do and have worked as an engineer in the defense and automotive industry for over 25 years now, and you can't help but run across lubrication somewhere along the line...even at home when in bed.
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In the same light, that paper doesn't prove a superior oil can't be produced with superior basestocks.




I tried but cannot untangle the double negative used in that sentence!




Tom clarified this a great deal, but I'll add a little.

Take the average Group III basestock produced today in quantity and optimize the add-pack. Take the very best Group IV/V basestocks produced today in quantity, and optimize the add-pack. I contend one could make a superior product in the second case.

Tom, please jump in and correct me if I wrong.
 
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Take the average Group III basestock produced today in quantity and optimize the add-pack. Take the very best Group IV/V basestocks produced today in quantity, and optimize the add-pack. I contend one could make a superior product in the second case.





I agree. I'd say the former can be less than or ~equal to, but not exceeding the latter, depending on the application. The more severe the application (extreme temp or long interval), the greater the gap. Tom, what do you say? Of course what he says nullifies our opinion if it differs from ours!
 
Well it depends on how you define "better oil" and "optimized additives".
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PAO should have better oxidative stability than the average Grp III, but after optimizing the additives that difference may disappear. The Grp III formulator's optimized additive package may include more anti-oxidants, that is, optimized to his targets and accounting for the lower oxidative stability of the Grp III. If identical additive packages were added to both base oils, then potentially different additive responses from the two chemistries may blur the differences.

This is all interesting but to a great degree academic discussion since both PAO and Grp III are both overkill for the vast majority of engines, driving conditions, and OCIs. And most of the additive packages are different and designed for each company’s specific technical and marketing targets. In my mind the additives are so powerful of a factor that the small oxidation differences between PAO and Grp III pale by comparison. In theory, with all variables controlled, PAO should give a slightly more stable oil than Grp III, but remember I can make a Grp I oil capable of providing clean engines and extended OCIs, and a Grp IV/V oil that would seize your engine in minutes. That's the importance of the additive system, especially at high temperatures and loads.

If your definition of better oil relates to low temperature performance or volatility, then the differences between the base oils is more apparent and less additive dependent, with PAO having the advantage. But again overkill or irrelevant for most drivers.

Unfortunately it is very hard to define better synthetic oils scientifically. The API engine tests are designed as pass/fail tests for Grp I/II based oils and don’t really show the advantages of synthetics. One can run the engine tests for double or triple sequence to make them more severe, but then these are not standardized tests and what do you compare the results to? UOA is helpful, especially in finding major faults or trends, but there are so many variables such as driving conditions, weather, engine condition, driving style, make-up oil, dust, loads, etc. that you would likely need hundreds of UOAs to draw statistically significant comparisons between two oils.

Personally I define better oils as ones formulated and produced by companies skilled in the art and bent on making the best they can. Top quality and expensive base oils are a clue to the company’s formulating philosophy, but not necessarily the key to best performance in my car.

Tom
 
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Personally I define better oils as ones formulated and produced by companies skilled in the art and bent on making the best they can. Top quality and expensive base oils are a clue to the company’s formulating philosophy, but not necessarily the key to best performance in my car.






Tom, well said as usual.
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I've been on the fence with this Group III issue/debate for quite some time, but have come to the conclusion that it's really not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. As Tom alluded to, it's the final product that matters and the skill of the chemist that ultimately determines how good a lubricant will perform.

Mobil's contract with top notch automakers signifies with me that they can't afford to make a lousy oil.
 
I would have to agree with TomNJ too. From the Chevron PDF I got off here yesterday it looks like the next big thing may just be GRPIII+ coming in a couple of years.
 
OK Tom, I have to two questions for you. And a comment.

First, given a choice of typical Group III basetocks such as ChevronTexaco UCBO 4R/UCBO 7R or the Group IV/V basestocks SpectraSyn Plus-Ultra/Synesstic, I'd like you to formulate the best 10 cSt 0w30 you can. Both are allowed a 10% Ester content of your choice and any additives you deem necessary. The finished product will be rated on CCS, MRV, NOACK, viscosity stability at -35°C/40°C/100°C, resistant to oxidation, and must pass all API GF-4 and ACEA A1/B1-04, A5/B5-04 tests. Which would you choose?

Second, given the Czech paper referenced above, and Castrol move to group III basestocks in their synthetic formulations back in 1997, it looks like it's been common knowledge for quite some time that with the correct additives one can produce a formulation equivalent in performance to those produced with PAOs. Why is it then that EOM continued to extoll the virtues of PAO based formulations over those made with Group III basestocks for the next 9 years? (See website reference above.) Why did the Mobil Oil Corporation file a complaint with the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus when other companies started to replace the PAOs in their formulations with Group III basestocks if equivalent performance was easily achieved?

And here's my comment. Thread after thread people keep entangling several separate issues such as:

1. Can a Group III oil be built good enough for 99.9% of people's needs?

2. Did Mobil (and later EOM) continue (for many years now) to convince the public that PAO based formulations have an inherent advantage over Group III formulations and are worth a price premium?

3. Is EOM continuing to obfuscate the issue as evidenced by buster's communiques and the removal of once common published data on various performance parameters?

In summary, if you trust EOM to deliver a superior Group III product worthy of it's price premium, go ahead, and knock your brains out. Personally, I have yet to see any data that demonstrates that it is superior and worthy of it's price premium. Most other Group III based products are passing the same API/ACEA tests.
 
The bottom line is that use of a PAO base stock does not guarantee the ultimate performance nor does use of a GroupIII base guarantee poorer performance than the average PAO-based oil (I am excluding very low temp applications).

Without considering cost and without limitations on additives, if one wanted to make the best possible oil and had only Group III and IV to choose as a base, then Group IV would likely be chosen. I think that without cost considerations, most could agree that Group IV is a better base than Group III. However, I am left to conclude that use of Group IV does not always mean that the final product is superiour to ALL Group III formulations.
 
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