Explaining the red line

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I was simplifying.

Any engine has a range of RPMs that is the best tradeoff among power, efficiency, and wear; usually the power band tells you something about where that range is. For trucks, it tends to be down low, and high RPMs are just a waste; regular car engines work okay at high RPMs, but the midrange is better. That's all I meant.
 
Yup. Then you have high performance cars with a power band up high. On the other end you have cars like my old 2.2L OHV Cavalier that does not have a powerband!!!
 
The main limitation of going past redline is the valvetrain isn't designed to do it and you can float the valves to the point you can get piston/valve interaction. Engines designed for high rpm have stiffer valve springs. If the springs are too soft and you rev the [censored] out of an engine, the valve/lifter can become detached from the cam lobe since the spring can't return the valve closed fast enough.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
The main limitation of going past redline is the valvetrain isn't designed to do it and you can float the valves to the point you can get piston/valve interaction. Engines designed for high rpm have stiffer valve springs. If the springs are too soft and you rev the [censored] out of an engine, the valve/lifter can become detached from the cam lobe since the spring can't return the valve closed fast enough.


Exactly right. Most engines, given an upgraded valvetrain, can turn quite a bit faster than the stock redline.
 
Originally Posted By: Onmo'Eegusee
Yup. If you go past it once, there can be latent damage which may not show up until later, maybe even after you forgot about the original incident....
It is hard to do on most cars nowadays. Although I did it once on my Mom's car. Its a Saturn with a manual transmission, with a rev limit of 6250, I think. I missed a downshift 5-4 and went 5-2 instead. Tach maxed out at 8000. Didnt blow. But, Im waiting to see what happens.


They call that the "money shift". Nothing a rev limiter can do about that. Hopefully it's OK!
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
The main limitation of going past redline is the valvetrain isn't designed to do it and you can float the valves to the point you can get piston/valve interaction. Engines designed for high rpm have stiffer valve springs. If the springs are too soft and you rev the [censored] out of an engine, the valve/lifter can become detached from the cam lobe since the spring can't return the valve closed fast enough.


Inertia
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
The main limitation of going past redline is the valvetrain isn't designed to do it and you can float the valves to the point you can get piston/valve interaction. Engines designed for high rpm have stiffer valve springs. If the springs are too soft and you rev the [censored] out of an engine, the valve/lifter can become detached from the cam lobe since the spring can't return the valve closed fast enough.


Inertia
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aka "valve float"
 
Yes, that, and OHV engines tend to have lower redlines, because the weight of the pushrods and lifters adds to the inertia.

"Beehive" style valve springs from the OEM have helped in the situation, racers sometimes use double or triple springs.

Bore verses stroke is only part of the equation. Many Honda engines have a smaller bore than stroke, even the ones that go to 8000 RPM or more. However, because the pistons are narrower, they are also lighter, reducing the inertia that causes failure at high RPM.

Forced induction has an effect, too. As the boost pressure rises, the intake valve spring must be stronger to shut the valve. Either the springs get higher pressure, or the rev limit is lowered to aid this. Turbochargers lag at low RPM, but at high RPM, the turbocharger must flow so much air that the inlet air may become excessively hot and turbulent, so the redline is set below that point. People who modify engines may reach or exceed this point, and need a different type of turbo to get more power.

EDIT: Also, forced induction engines often need heavier pistons and connecting rods to handle the higher pressure of combustion, this also lowers redline.

Cylinder head port design is important. Large ports mean low torque at low RPM, but when the engine reaches high RPM, large amounts of power are produced. Small ports mean more low end torque, but at high RPM, the power quickly falls off. Advances in the shape of ports have enabled small port engines to flow like some large port engines, resulting in power gains across the entire curve. This is also why many 4 valve engines have a higher redline than 2 valve engines.

Cam design is extremely important. Low valve overlap is great for low end torque, but at high RPM the "Scavenging effect" where exhaust gas inertia causes the intake side to inhale more deeply ends. This is why high overlap cams are used in high RPM engines, and why extremely high lift cams in V8 engines have a unique sound.

VTEC and other technologies have helped to get around this.

Intake manifold designs are important. Long runners are great for low end torque, but at high RPM, they become a problem. GM TPI engines are an extreme example of this. At low RPM, those engines produced incredible low end torque at the time they were built. However, above 4500 RPM, HP quickly fell.

Variable intake manifolds have gotten around this.
 
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It's been said most engines can handle 80% load at 80% of redline RPM... forever.

There's a guy on here bombing up and down the eastern seaboard in a 1.6 liter hyundai accent at 85 MPH... and doing okay at it.
 
artificialist: I wanted to thank you for that very detailed and informative post.

eljefino: Interesting saying, I hadn't heard that one before. Makes me feel better about freeway hill climbs in my Civic :)
 
Originally Posted By: artificialist

Forced induction has an effect, too. As the boost pressure rises, the intake valve spring must be stronger to shut the valve.


You would be surprised how few people know this. I ran into it first hand many years ago. As boost got into the 23psi range on the 200,000 mile factory stock motor it would pop and cut out. I spent months trying to diagnose it, focusing on ignition. New valvesprings did the trick.
 
As said, it all depends on the engine design.

1. I had an 87 Honda Accord hatch FI and was taking some open wheel road racing students around Watkins Glen. Down into the boot and the brakes faded to zero going out of the fastest corner into the hardest braking downhill. I put into 3rd to get engine braking, while plusing the brakes to soak the heat out.

8000 rpm. The engine fluttered, floated the valves, no power momentarily, got the brakes to do something. Clutch in. Let the clutch out at 6000 rpm (matching the revs to not rip the gearbox out), cough, gurgle, back to full song. 268,000 mi.

Car went to 320,000 mi before next owner flipped it. Mobil 1 5w30.

BTW, needed a valve adjustment afterwards!! Ran fine anyway.

2. My Formula Ford (pushrod 1.6L Ford) racing car would run with synthetic 15W-50 for a couple seasons if you NEVER went over 5900 rpm. Problem is max hp is at 6200. Need a valve job twice a season doing that.
 
My professor (Andy Frank, the guy in UC Davis who did hybrid auto research) lecture us every year before we start building up or modifying the next engine for the hybrid. He mentioned a few points that I remember to this day:

1. The linear velocity of a piston is the key, you cannot go past certain linear velocity it is designed for with the material and its quality.

2. You can trade the peak of power band by changing crank/rod ratio. High rpm peak power wants long rod and short crank ratio, and low rpm peak power wants short rod and long crank ratio. This will keep the peak linear velocity of piston close to the peak power band desired.

3. The engine's peak rpm must be matched up to the correct gear ratio so the power is useful, not just a bragging right.

4. ECU should cut fuel/ignition to protect against going past the unsafe rpm. The 2nd level protection mechanism should be with the valve spring, so that in the worst case if the ECU is not protecting well, the valve would float and engine isn't breathing optimally and therefore slow down.

5. Most engine failure due to excessive rpm is due to downshifting incorrectly, skipping a gear (from 4 to 2, 3 to 1, 4 to 1, etc). Nothing but a slipping clutch or a broken transmission will protect your engine in this case.
 
eljefino, my dad had a 1987 Hyundai Excel, and at every stoplight he had to floor the accelerator, or traffic behind him would beep their horns and the drivers would shout some very harsh words.

On the highway between Tampa, the 3 speed automatic resulted in close to 5000 RPM at 70 MPH, the redline was 5500 RPM. That is approximately 91%.

His engine was still alive and okay after 117,000 miles, he used Castrol 20w50 conventional, and changed it every 3000 miles. Most Excels died before then.

EDIT: and PandaBear, I want to thank you for thanking me.
 
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Originally Posted By: artificialist
EDIT: and PandaBear, I want to thank you for thanking me.


Thanks artificialist for the detail infos.

However, I think it is rationull that was thanking you in the first place, and sorry I forgot to thank you earlier instead.
 
Geez, all the thanking for thanking credit getting misapplied!! :)

Panda: I'd like to thank you for clearing that up so that I would get the initial thanking for thanking credit.

OK, if running 500 RPM under redline to go 70 on the highway works for an 87 Excel, I'm now going to worry even less about long hill climbs at 4k (out of 6.8k) in my Civic!
 
Originally Posted By: rationull
Originally Posted By: StevieC
All the people doing the Thanking... GET A ROOM!
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Thank you for the excellent suggestion!


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Thanks I needed that!
 
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