But this is my favourite place on the internet, with the same thread and same comments month after month, year after year!
I add my own repetitive comments from time to time as well, for the fun of it!
EV for people who hate EV's...
- Thread starter Jack Watts
- Start date
I add my own repetitive comments from time to time as well, for the fun of it!
I’m a strong EV proponent but have never really understood the argument about all the time saved by not having to fuel up. Sure, plugging in is quick but there are gas stations everywhere and no matter where I go I can just stop on the way by whenever I feel like it. I don’t think I’ve had to wait in line more than a few times in my several decades of driving. It’s quick.
Further, I enjoy fueling up. Heck, I even like the smell of gas
Having said that, I’ll probably never buy an ICE vehicle again, the EV advantages and savings are simply too valuable for me to ignore.
What to do with old batteries? A few possibilities:
- Failed EV batteries (meaning any down to 70% of original capacity) could be used as power walls. I'd like to have a power wall right now to bridge over power outages. And wouldn't a power wall be great for storage of excess solar energy.
- If EV batteries really do require regular replacement at great cost (and I have severe doubts about that statement), aftermarket EV battery rebuilders will appear. In most cases only a minority of cells will need replacement.
- If EVs involved in minor accidents cost too much to repair (and I have my doubts about that statement too) the wrecks will be a rich source of parts including used batteries.
- Metals don't disappear. Can you imagine a richer source of the metals you need to make batteries than failed batteries made with those very metals.
As for the source of power - a lot of our electricity comes from renewable sources.
I don't know, nobody held a gun to my head to buy an EV last year. I know they talk about it, but there will be a looooong time before they will actually do it. If ever. I won't loose any sleep over it.
I like EVs, I just can't justify their price yet, so I ended up buying a used Prius for 13k. I'm really hoping for Model 2 to come out and then in a few years I will snach up a used one for cheap.
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Of course!
This was actually on my list as well. Funny thing is that the Up! GTi is probably the closest new-ish car you can get to the original GTi, and also puts a fine point on just how big cars have gotten over time. The Up! GTi I test drove was miles better than my MK1, RIP... They also do a "Cross UP!", which is an Up withe some black cladding and 1cm higher ground clearance or whatever... Though with the driving around here, some plastic cladding on the fenders may not be a bad thing. Ultimately though, the E-UP! was just more practical for me, which is why I went that direction. Would something like an Up! GTi sell in the US? oof....I mean, I'd have been a target buyer, but the "you'll get crushed in that thing" contingent is strong in the land of SUV's...
A few thoughts on some of the comments:
-the comparisons about charging speed, now that I own a fully electric vehicle, are really an apples/oranges comparison. I mean, I've never filled my my gas car at home while I'm sleeping? I've never filled it up while walking around doing my grocery shopping or running any other errand (not talking about adding a stop, I'm talking about just doing what I'd be doing anyway). For whatever reason, I've always hated stopped for gas. Even factoring in the one long road trip, I've spent far less timing fueling my vehicle now, because it's a lot more convenient.
-that said, circumstances and location obviously matter. I can charge at home. I have solar, so the only thing is costs me is the ridiculously small credit I get for selling back electricity that's over what my batteries will hold. I'm in a warm, sunny climate. AND, I can charge for free at several places, with the added benefit of a better parking space. Even though I can charge at home, I typically just rely on convenience charging at free chargers. This is not an uncommon site for me (taken at the local Mercadona). "Build it and they will come...eventually...":
-as mentioned before, I also live on a small island, so "range anxiety" just isn't a thing. As mentioned, when I lived in the US, this would have fit ALMOST all of my needs, but not all.. And, I can rent a bigger car here for as cheap as $1 a day depending on the time of year. Yes, you read that correctly... But yeah, something like this in the US and I'd want a second vehicle, most likely.
I guess my bigger point though isn't so much about the Up! specifically but about a car that doesn't try so hard to be an "electric car". It's not just Tesla. The ID-series cars and KIA's cars also fit this bill as well. And I wonder how much that design ethos just sets people off. Of course, that is also a dying demographic (literally), so I'm not sure how much auto manufacturers care?
In terms of practicality, I could have bought the same car, similarly equipped and condition, for about 2.5K USD less. At this rate, it's a no brainer in terms of practicality, and the E-version feels better to drive (subjective). It easily pencils out (gas that's almost 2 euro a liter or $8.00 a gallon in old money makes the pencil move a lot faster, or course...). It would have penciled out in Seattle as well (high gas prices and cheap electricity prices).
Subsidies and electric cars? That's a sticky one. Personally I'm of the mind that we spend orders of magnitude more subsidizing petroleum production and consumption (hard to get past that "equal and opposite reaction" part of the equation of internal combustion. And I'm not even saying this is a horrible thing--but it's always left out of the equation. So, we're all paying one way or another. For a technology in its infancy, it seems like a worthy investment, IMO.
4WD
$50 site donor 2025
No love - no hate on EV’s - but honestly - don’t know why a guy can’t just post a new vehicle purchase without lighting rods attached …
I think I’m the opposite on that. I’ll likely always have an ICE vehicle even as a secondary car due to the driving experience, but I truly dislike stopping for fuel and the smell of fuel. I may change on that eventually when I do get serious about buying another car.I’m a strong EV proponent but have never really understood the argument about all the time saved by not having to fuel up. Sure, plugging in is quick but there are gas stations everywhere and no matter where I go I can just stop on the way by whenever I feel like it. I don’t think I’ve had to wait in line more than a few times in my several decades of driving. It’s quick.
Further, I enjoy fueling up. Heck, I even like the smell of gas
Having said that, I’ll probably never buy an ICE vehicle again, the EV advantages and savings are simply too valuable for me to ignore.
I use public charging so little that it would save me time to never pump fuel again. I fill up twice a week right now and would never need public charging with my current work needs.
Ummm... that does sound right to me. I would expect an EV to be more reliable compared to any older gasoline car except if you run out of charge. Even current gasoline, though extremely reliable still would be tilted to an EV but I think comparing modern day EV vs gas is splitting hairs. Actually reliability according to Consumer Reports on some EVs is lower and the reason being given because its a new technology but still compared to a Tesla or Nissan that has been in production for a while not I would say would be hands down more reliable. (again, splitting hairs)
That's always been my understanding of it. It's why the cost of the battery always comes up, almost like an all or nothing repair. There isn't a whole lot of small components to nickel and dime you into oblivion or break randomly that would render the vehicle unable to drive.
I REALLY like your posts and they are informative, I said many times in these threads we may have an EV if affordable as our second car, more so if I am going to grab $7,500 from my fellow Americans.
But then you brought up subsides *LOL* you shouldn't. In the USA taxpayers will pay up to $7,500 at the time of purchase to buy certain EVs . Instant cash as a downpayment even.
Dont use petroleum production and consumption as an argument to justify that because it cannot be substantiated in simple terms as an EV with a direct $7,500 given away to purchase a car. Also keep in mind your EV is cheaper because of any unsubstantiated rumors of petroleum subsides, not only your EV but EVERYTHING you own. As less than 50% of ALL petroleum production is used for fuel. Think PLASTICS as well as ALL the ROADS your EV drives on.
No one ever will "hold a gun" to force you to buy an EV. Obviously. They will take market choices away from you bit by bit, and dangle incentives taxpayers have to fund to coerce you to "transition" (ever heard that word lately?) to EV's.
For my wife's hybrid its 600 miles for how ever long it takes to pump 16 gallons (has a 18 gallon tank).
If EVs are new they should be better.
But no with EVs it's higher cost, higher insurance, faster depreciation, long charge times.
EVs shine when you buy them used, charge at home and drive them locally. Can't beat em.
We aren't really transitioning to EVs though either. People that want them are buying them as more come available, but we've had no shortage of new versions of gasoline vehicles released along side new EVs with every automaker. I get the impression some see the existence of EVs as a threat themselves. At no point during these early phases of modern EVs do I think there will be less EV models than there are now, but that's pretty normal for new tech.
I've historically complained every 10 years about how cars have changed. I complained when throttle by wire became a thing. I initially was upset about the loss of the manual in some cars. Heck I complained when traction control became a required safety feature. I thought early airbag steering wheels were ugly. Progress is going to happen and processes change due to available technology. If I want one of these older cars I can buy one. Sure it's not going to be daily material for me, but I'm able to experience it. It's only within the last year or so that I started to actually just look forward to what could come from this. There's interesting new technology even in ICE vehicles.
The run them low and fully charge them approach to EVs as treating them like ICE vehicles is always going to show the worst side of it. I've gotten to the point where I really dislike traveling far since I get so little time off these days so regardless of what I'm driving I'm not going further than a charging stop or two. I'm not doing the cross country trek in a car likely ever again and I should be able to count on one hand the amount times I'll do a 800+ mile drive on one hand in the next 20 years. The only thing that could change that is if I want to spend that much time in a car during retirement, which is at least 20 years away and I'll be curious to see the tech then.
EV battery recycling has already begun, the raw materials don't wear out when the battery is done.
As for the "EV power stations are fueled by fossil fuels", a fossil fuel powered generating station runs at a far higher thermal efficiency than your neighbor's F250 and most other ICE vehicles as well. Driving an EV powered by natural gas electricity, as the majority of the power generation in Texas is, is less carbon intensive than driving an ICE vehicle.
But that said I don't care so much about that, I just like the way EVs drive. Insane power with no noise. No going back for me.
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@gfh77665
and because they're valuable they aren't just getting thrown in the trash.
Add into that that companies like Tesla reusing battery components for their solar power wall solutions. If a battery is on the lower side of capacity affecting range it still can be effective as a battery backup in a solar setup and is cost effective for Tesla since it's just reusing already assembled components and not remanufacturing.
I like this point. Tesla is not the only game in town, there are other choices and more new EV releases all the time.
I don't get the hate. EVs are not for everyone; no one vehicle is.
AZjeff
$50 Site Donor 2023
This thinking just seems like a way to keep the EV dislike burning. Wouldn't it be just as valid to think you're grabbing back $7500 of the taxes YOU paid if you bought an EV? It's been a long time since we payed less than $7500 in Fed income tax, although now being retired if we bought an EV that $7500 would be your money. Thank you
This isnt true.This thinking just seems like a way to keep the EV dislike burning. Wouldn't it be just as valid to think you're grabbing back $7500 of the taxes YOU paid if you bought an EV? It's been a long time since we payed less than $7500 in Fed income tax, although now being retired if we bought an EV that $7500 would be your money. Thank you
The $7,500 is a gift for buying an EV. You do not have to have any tax liability. Maybe some are unaware of the changes this year.
You can buy an EV today, get instant $7,500 to apply towards down payment from the taxpayers. If you do not owe $7,500 in the following tax year, it doesnt matter, you AND the car dealer do not have to repay it. Taxpayer picks up the tab.
But even if it was true "keep the EV dislike burning" is perfectly valid when giving away taxpayer money to purchase one product over another, even if it is not feasible to use that product they are pushing in your household.
This. Every time I drive or ride in an ICE vehicle now, I cringe at how bad they really are. You don't realize it until you've spent some time in an EV. ICE vehicles are unrefined, noisy, and have laggy acceleration. Nothing compares to the smooth, instant torque of even an "economy" EV like a Bolt. I've driven my Trailblazer just a handful of times since buying it and pick the Bolt almost every time I go somewhere. It's just disappointing to go back to gas.
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keep in mind, as I said I don't think petroleum subsidizes are a bad thing! I mean, the reality is that I love my carbon-fiber bike, fast tires, and TV set. I mean, I've been a competitive cyclist for decades, and the last thing in the world I want to do is to go back to wool shorts! (thank you, inventors of Lycra..). But let's not pretend those subsidies don't exist. They do. Electric vehicles can provide a public benefit with cleaner air in dense locations (and here in the land of 20 year old diesels running tractor fuel, but that's a different story..). So, a comparatively small subsidy just doesn't give me that same amount of heartburn, even if I don't love how it's implemented. I just think it's disingenuous to ONLY talk about subsidies for EV's and ignore the reality of the historical subsidies that have gone into fuel production, traditional automotive production, etc.
As I said though, I know it's a touchy subject.