EV Cradle to Grave emissions

[BLND1]

good and underrated question...

Out of sight, out of mind. An inconvenient truth that gets buried.

Marketing - like everything else.

 

[PandaBear]

China has been trying to grow its economy with rare earth mining. I think they finally are rich enough they can limit that now (to reduce export and keep them only for domestic use), and of course we call that "unfair".

The biggest problem for now is cobalt, we all have to turn a blind eye to get it (war crime, child labor, pollution, etc) or we won't get it. LFP battery will use less to none of it and that would likely be the more eco friendly way going forward, with less capacity of course.

 

[sk_pete]

cobalt is nothing special, but see the price trends over decades...neodymium, and few others, are next.
One day, silver will be cheaper

 

[PandaBear]

for 8k€ you can buy here decent 2nd hand car.

45l (11.8 us gal) since it has 3cyl sewing machine under hood, it can have similar mileage like (nonplugin) prius.
pocket size engines are mainstream in europe. more or less they always have been.
exhaust pipes like cola straws, and valves like child teaspoons. minimalism at the best.
2cv had 2 pistons, i have 3. what´s not to like. lol
https://www.auto-data.net/en/citroen-c3-iii-phase-i-2016-1.2-puretech-82hp-lpg-27547

You are mixing up LPG (liquified petroleum gas, aka propane) and CNG (compressed natural gas, aka methane).

LPG is liquid in room temp, they do not have very high pressure, they are about the same as your refrigerant in your AC, they do not explode if you are not careful but they might catch fire. Because it is a liquid the energy density is high. Because it is a liquid it is valuable as a fuel to be transported and traded all over the world. It is fast to fuel because it is a liquid and it is relatively low pressure.

CNG is a gas in room temp, so the energy density is low unless you compress it to ridiculous high temperature. IT WILL EXPLODE if you puncture it near a fire instead of just slow burn like a stove. This is why a certified CNG tank, like the one in Civic GX, is only for 10 years and if you want a replacement and recertified process, plus insurance, it will cost 8k to 10k and people just junk those cars. NG aka methane is a byproduct in the US oil pump during fracking, and they are sold at very low price, sometimes so low it is not worth pumping them to the network and be sold as home heating and water heating fuel, they just flare it at the well instead. It is slow to fuel because it is very high pressure, as I said it takes about 20 mins to pump a near empty CNG passenger car to near full.

So, back to the original statement of CNG being the only viable fuel source for US. It is not for small passenger vehicles. It may be ok for a bus, a garbage truck, but not for passenger car. This is why you do not see gas station with CNG pump, only municipal stations that service garbage truck, public bus, government cars, etc. Nobody wants to be stuck in the gas station for 20 mins, gas station will go bankrupt or charge you a bad price.

Propane conversion is cheap, you just need to have a high compression (or turbo) and you adjust the air fuel ratio and ignition timing to match what works well for propane efficiently. Then you connect the fuel line to a propane line and then to a propane tank in the trunk. You can even do a propane tank adapter and just swap propane tank with cooking and BBQ propane tanks too, if regulation allows.

 

[Skippy722]

You are mixing up LPG (liquified petroleum gas, aka propane) and CNG (compressed natural gas, aka methane).

LPG is liquid in room temp, they do not have very high pressure, they are about the same as your refrigerant in your AC, they do not explode if you are not careful but they might catch fire. Because it is a liquid the energy density is high. Because it is a liquid it is valuable as a fuel to be transported and traded all over the world. It is fast to fuel because it is a liquid and it is relatively low pressure.

CNG is a gas in room temp, so the energy density is low unless you compress it to ridiculous high temperature. IT WILL EXPLODE if you puncture it near a fire instead of just slow burn like a stove. This is why a certified CNG tank, like the one in Civic GX, is only for 10 years and if you want a replacement and recertified process, plus insurance, it will cost 8k to 10k and people just junk those cars. NG aka methane is a byproduct in the US oil pump during fracking, and they are sold at very low price, sometimes so low it is not worth pumping them to the network and be sold as home heating and water heating fuel, they just flare it at the well instead. It is slow to fuel because it is very high pressure, as I said it takes about 20 mins to pump a near empty CNG passenger car to near full.

So, back to the original statement of CNG being the only viable fuel source for US. It is not for small passenger vehicles. It may be ok for a bus, a garbage truck, but not for passenger car. This is why you do not see gas station with CNG pump, only municipal stations that service garbage truck, public bus, government cars, etc. Nobody wants to be stuck in the gas station for 20 mins, gas station will go bankrupt or charge you a bad price.

Propane conversion is cheap, you just need to have a high compression (or turbo) and you adjust the air fuel ratio and ignition timing to match what works well for propane efficiently. Then you connect the fuel line to a propane line and then to a propane tank in the trunk. You can even do a propane tank adapter and just swap propane tank with cooking and BBQ propane tanks too, if regulation allows.

Propane is a gas at standard temperature and pressure. It is also heavier than air, which can make it more dangerous since it will settle to low spots and linger if there is no air movement.

 

[Rmay635703]

So, back to the original statement of CNG being the only viable fuel source for US. It is not for small passenger vehicles. It may be ok for a bus, a garbage truck, but not for passenger car. This is why you do not see gas station with CNG pump, only municipal stations that service garbage truck, public bus, government cars, etc. Nobody wants to be stuck in the gas station for 20 mins, gas station will go bankrupt or charge you a bad price.

Propane conversion is cheap, you just need to have a high compression (or turbo) and you adjust the air fuel ratio and ignition timing to match what works well for propane efficiently. Then you connect the fuel line to a propane line and then to a propane tank in the trunk. You can even do a propane tank adapter and just swap propane tank with cooking and BBQ propane tanks too, if regulation allows.

I’ve seen exactly the opposite, municipal is propane, little cars are CNG.

Every city I travel to locally has CNG right at the gas station, there are exactly ZERO self service Propane pumps and in fact in this area it’s illegal for me to self fill propane
The only places I can fill need an appointment and are only open a very limited number of hours during M-F
They also tend to charge at least double market rate for the privilege to get it slightly cheaper I would have to rent a tank and fill it once a year in late April

Add to this CNG has been $1.99 a GGE forever including during the $5 a gallon mess, propane per GGE in this area trends around the price of diesel fuel after considering tank costs and tax, in the winter it can be more expensive than diesel making gasoline much cheaper

An immense change would be required for propane to make any financial sense assuming you can even get it without an immense hassle.

 

[PandaBear]

Interesting, seems like propane vs CNG is really location specific. At least around here CNG is dead already.

Propane is a gas at room temp and atmospheric pressure, but can easily be compressed and stay liquid in a pressurized tank in room temp. CNG need refrigeration and compression to stay liquid, this is why you see CNG instead of LNG for small vehicles or buses. I know UPS / FedEx have experiment with LNG but they have to constantly release some of the LNG to cool off (boiling absorb heat), and run refrigeration to cool the tank.

Those ocean tanker? They are heavily insulated and refrigerated, using some of the LNG boiling off to cool as well as running the onboard refrigeration. You don't want to mess with LNG in small vehicles, and you need large vehicle like semi at least, to justify LNG.

 

[sk_pete]

cng - lng car tanks must be controlled each 4y.
lpg has no such thing. (250bar - cng)
https://translate.google.com/transl...-explodovalo-audi-s-tovarnim-pohonem-na-plyn/

(winter-summer mix 70/30 - 30/70)

cng east/mid europe is rarer, we have only 3stations for entire republic. (waaaay more charging stations)
majority of fuel stations sell also lpg. west side of europe is different.

Propane is a gas at standard temperature and pressure.

exactly. same stuff inside (butane)