Europe Toyota Prius HYBRID 15W-40 10,000 miles

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batterycar

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I'm posting this for a friend. Please comment and then I'll forward the comments to him. Thanks!

.

hi,

see attachment, please.
it is the result of an oil analysis after 15.000 km (13500-29000), the
recommended oil change
intervall for the prius by toyota, Germany.
two main concerns: silicium too high! poor/inadequate air filter
quality?
too much oil dilution caused by fuel.
both problems were also seen in my 1st prius. much worse though,
because the oil had not been
changed as recommended.

what do you think? enjoy, jock

..............


15W-40 - ~10,000 miles (15500 km)
Toyota Classic Prius Europe - ~18,000 miles (29000 km)


WEAR METALS (milligram/kilogram)b>
13 copper
16 iron
00 chromium
09 aluminum
01 lead
06 tin
00 nickel


OIL ADDITIVES (wear prevention)
0462 molybdenum
1475 phosphor
1467 zinc
0014 magnesium
1557 calcium
0003 boron
0004 barium


CONTAMINANTS
000 glycol (antifreeze?)
82 silicon (dirt)
03 sodium
0.1% water
03.7% Fuel
0.01% Soot Content


USED OIL PROPERTIES
12 sulfation (A/cm)
17 oxidation (A/cm)
20 nitration (A/cm)

69.68 mm^2/s @ 40C (15W?)
11.00 mm^2/s @ 100C (SAE40?)
00149 Viscoity Index

TBN = 4.23 mgKOH/g

Wear-Check Schmeirstoff-Analysen

[ January 28, 2004, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: batterycar ]
 
Well the wear for that milage is not bad at all. The silicon is probably not all dirt-but I would still be checking for intake/filter leaks. The tin is a bad sign along with the copper (bronze). That could be partially due to the silicon but could be abnormal wear-possibly the thrust bearing\ or wrist pin. The fuel dilution is in that the range that it needs to be evaluated. The soot looks to be so low as to be not reliable. It will be interesting to see the next one. I wouldn't run this oil any longer and would probably change a little sooner to see how things are going.
 
Remember this is a Hybid. There is a lot of starting and stopping the engine. This car around town only starts it's engine to charge the batteries. Once the batteries are charged and the need for additional power is not needed it turns off. This has be really hard on the rings, bearings and the oil. The oil probably never gets above 120 degrees except if the car is used on a long highway trip. If the car is sitting and not moving it will occasionally start up and idle until the batteries are fully charged and shut off. I couldn't think of a situation that could be harder on the oil.
 
If it's a dino oil, then the oxidation and nitration levels are elevated, and this isn't surprising from all the fuel dilution. It's also a low 30-weight now.

The units for the wear metals, BTW, work out to ppm.
 
Hybrid! now there's an interesting OA.

The wear look pretty good IMO.

Re: moly
quote:
0462 molybdenum
Click to expand...
Is it wear from toyota moly engine coating, or is it german ueber-oel? Must be the oil, surely; what are you using?


quote:

This has be really hard on the rings, bearings and the oil. The oil probably never gets above 120 degrees except if the car is used on a long highway trip. If the car is sitting and not moving it will occasionally start up and idle until the batteries are fully charged and shut off. I couldn't think of a situation that could be harder on the oil
Click to expand...
You would think it would be hard on the oil, but I don't think it's as bad as above. The engine has frequent starts, but they're not cold starts. I wonder if the Toyota onboard computer has the engine warm up before kicking in the engine start-stop-on-demand fuel saving behavior. Maybe the below avg temps of the oil and varying engine temperatures of the hybrid engine, efficient wot operation, do put some stress on the oil, visible by the fuel dilution, and this explains why HD 15w-45 is used for this toyota.

Prost!
cheers.gif
 
quote:
Originally posted by ALS:
This has be really hard on the rings, bearings and the oil.
Click to expand...
Why? Whether the engine is going from 0 to 2000 rpms... or 2000 to 4000 rpms... I would not think it'd make any difference.

Also, with 10000 miles in only 1/2 a year, it sounds like it's a highway car.
 
quote:
Originally posted by batterycar:

quote:
Originally posted by ALS:
This has be really hard on the rings, bearings and the oil.
Click to expand...
Why? Whether the engine is going from 0 to 2000 rpms... or 2000 to 4000 rpms... I would not think it'd make any difference.

Also, with 10000 miles in only 1/2 a year, it sounds like it's a highway car.
Click to expand...
Why? Because the engine is off, there is no oil flowing through it, except what is left and draining down to the pan from the last start. I guess the heavier oil they use would stay up in the engine for longer.
 
I'm still not sure I am reading this right, with it being related to mass units. Wear metals appear to look good for 10k miles. This is true especially considering this is probably only the second batch of oil in this car, the first being the factory fill (?). I'm betting this is why there is so much moly and silicon in the sample.

The 40 weight paid off because it seems to have countered some of the effects of the fuel dilution. Although the fuel diltution might be the trigger of some of the tin wear. We sure have seen a lot of fuel in these oil samples lately.
 
The units are parts per million. (Do the math).

Here's some more info:
BRAND: CASTROL
VISCOSITY: 15W-40

The replacement oil is 5W-40...probably because it's winter in Germany now.
 
Kinda of shows the influence of CAFE on automakers. Europe, a hybrid car, built to maximize fuel economy, still lists 15W-40 to offer engine protection over fuel economy.
 
15W40 is an odd combination in a car designed for fuel economy? I am all for it if the weather allows for this weight to be used. The UOA looks fine for the millage and duty cycle! I would think though that it would be entirely too cold out in Germany this time of year for this oil to be the best choice! The switch to 5W40 was a wise one! IF the 5W40 is synthetic it could be run year round I would imagine!

With this engine constantly shutting off and starting up over and over again it is going to take some trending to get a good idea on how this engine should look. (sorry for run on)

[ February 01, 2004, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
 
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
15W40 is an odd combination in a car designed for fuel economy? I am all for it if the weather allows for this weight to be used. The UOA looks fine for the millage and duty cycle! I would think though that it would be entirely too cold out in Germany this time of year for this oil to be the best choice! The switch to 5W40 was a wise one! IF the 5W40 is synthetic it could be run year round I would imagine!

With this engine constantly shutting off and starting up over and over again it is going to take some trending to get a good idea on how this engine should look. (sorry for run on)
Click to expand...
I aint no enginer but could i possibly be right about my statement?:

quote:
I guess the heavier oil they use would stay up in the engine for longer.
Click to expand...
 
15W-40 is standard for European summers.
5W-40 for winter.

Remember, Europe doesn't have CAFE so no need to use a thinner oil just to increase the MPGs.
 
batterycar, Thanks to the Department of Deffense and the "COLD WAR" I spent half of my life in Germany. I did my automotive aprenticeship their! While their is nothing wrong with 15W40 especialy in the summer you can get the same type of protection from a synthetic 5W40 and have bettter cold flow. In some cases you might actualy end up with a higheter HT/HS rateing with the 5W40. 5W40 would also allow the oil to be run reguardless of seasonal temp fluctionas so one oil could be made to work year round!

Lets say your friend has to go to the field and he still has 15W40 in it. He comes back 3 months latter to freezeing temps and has to start a cold dry thick geld oil beast! Let say he gets deployeed and comes back 1 year latter to the same situation?

I was not trying to knock anyone!! Just makeing a suggestion!
 
With the Honda Hybrid, the gas engine runs most of the time, and shuts down only when the vehicle is stopped. I thought the Toyota was the same.
The electric is for assistance when more power is needed.
 
So does this mean that with this car the mileage is not an accurate measure of engine running time with the oil? Therefore the UOA mileage is not an accurate one of the true distance travelled ie. it is much less??
 
Dr. T, Toyotas turns the engine on or off constantly based on power demands. Every time you stop the engine shuts off and restarts when needed. The engine can also start to charge batterys even if parked and shut off I belive. You could see a situation were you only drove 10 miles and had the engine shut off and restart 30-60 times!

Toyota has a display console that shows what drive systems are being used at any given minute.

Millage is not an accurate indicator of how much total time the engine has been run. It also does not take into account all the cold starts.

The hybird engines are going to take some time and alot of UOA to get used to.
 
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