Ethanol in gas

[clarklawnscape]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: JTK
FWIW, my area has had mostly E10 for 20+ years now. Now it's entirely E10, so it's hard to say if it's entirely the E10's fault or just the cheapness and sensitivity of today's bubble gum and paper mache carburetors.


That's an intriguing possibility; I don't think it's been posted here before. It's too easy to blame the gas when the engine itself, and particularly the carb, have been built as cheaply as possible. It's not like the average lawnmower or snowblower has a 5 year/60 000 mile power train warranty, which certainly isn't uncommon in cars.

These are excellent points, imo its time that small engines catch up in many areas, and this ethanol fuel is certainly one of them

 

[tig1]

Even in the 60s(long before e10) carbs would varnish up if gas was left in it long enough. Also that was before Sta-Bil. So varnish in carbs is nothing new. Also my 23 year old Honda mower has had nothing but e10 used in it and the carb has never been removed.

 

[Bluestream]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Even in the 60s(long before e10) carbs would varnish up if gas was left in it long enough. Also that was before Sta-Bil. So varnish in carbs is nothing new.


Ethanol is a powerful cleaner, so there is less varnish with E10. In fact most fuel system treatments are just ethanol. That's not the issue; its all the other problems that E10 brings. The gas hose on my 9.9 Mercury outboard began to dissolve form the ethanol. I bought special alcohol resistant hose for it, but then decided to be safe and switch everything to pure gasoline.

 

[clarklawnscape]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Even in the 60s(long before e10) carbs would varnish up if gas was left in it long enough. Also that was before Sta-Bil. So varnish in carbs is nothing new. Also my 23 year old Honda mower has had nothing but e10 used in it and the carb has never been removed.

Glad youve had goodluck, and im not looking at it from a varnish standpoint, but from the havoc ive seen ethanol do to diaprams, small fuel lines, and primer bulbs. i cant say for 100% sure its the ethanol causing such problems, however ive switched all small 2cycle products over to prenium fuel, and since have not had nearly any issues

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Ethanol is a powerful cleaner, so there is less varnish with E10. In fact most fuel system treatments are just ethanol. That's not the issue; its all the other problems that E10 brings. The gas hose on my 9.9 Mercury outboard began to dissolve form the ethanol. I bought special alcohol resistant hose for it, but then decided to be safe and switch everything to pure gasoline.

I've never had gas hose desolve using e10 in the two decades of e10 use. Also some do say they have varnish problems with e10. So you see you hear all kinds of conflicting reports. I just have my own experience to go by.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: clarklawnscape
Originally Posted By: tig1
Even in the 60s(long before e10) carbs would varnish up if gas was left in it long enough. Also that was before Sta-Bil. So varnish in carbs is nothing new. Also my 23 year old Honda mower has had nothing but e10 used in it and the carb has never been removed.

Glad youve had goodluck, and im not looking at it from a varnish standpoint, but from the havoc ive seen ethanol do to diaprams, small fuel lines, and primer bulbs. i cant say for 100% sure its the ethanol causing such problems, however ive switched all small 2cycle products over to prenium fuel, and since have not had nearly any issues

I did replace the primer bulb on my Echo weed wacker this year, but the machine is 10 years old and I never drain out the fuel left from season to season.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Even in the 60s(long before e10) carbs would varnish up if gas was left in it long enough. Also that was before Sta-Bil. So varnish in carbs is nothing new. Also my 23 year old Honda mower has had nothing but e10 used in it and the carb has never been removed.


That's certainly true, tig. Back in the years of farming, we certainly had a lot of outdoor power equipment and things that were only used seasonally. Not a lot of special precautions were undertaken and very few problems appeared. Some E10 was certainly used, particularly in the later years. However, a lot of the equipment used was top end stuff, not no name garbage stuff from a big box store using illicit, foreign copies of well known engine designs, either.

I know it's cliche, but at one time things were built to last and you get what you pay for. If one buys a lawnmower for under $100, it likely isn't built to be a twenty year mower, and any carb work needed during its service life is likely to cost more than the value of the machine.

About 15 years ago, my dad bought a very high end JD riding mower for the farm. It cost around $17,000 at the time. It ran solely on E10 and he never bothered with Stabil or draining fuel or any of that. It never had an issue. My own lawnmower, also about 15 years old, was always a one pull start (with occasional use of Stabil in the last couple years). It has a B&S engine, and only quit running because the carb bolts loosened and the darned thing actually fell off. My snowblower, however, has had a few issues.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: clarklawnscape
These are excellent points, imo its time that small engines catch up in many areas, and this ethanol fuel is certainly one of them


Agreed. Automakers can do it, and have done it for decades. It's time for the recreational and power equipment industries to do the same. They've already enhanced environmental regulations on some of this stuff. Mandate a lengthy emissions system warranty like they do with vehicles, and I bet a bunch of these problems disappear in one or two model years.

It's not like E10 came out last year, nor is it going to disappear this fall. Small engine customers and repairmen have been complaining about these issues for a lengthy period of time, only to be told by the manufacturers and dealers that it's the fault of the fuel. If they're not up to the task of building the equipment properly, perhaps customers need to vote with their wallets.

 

[Bluestream]

I had to replace the Diaphragm on my String trimmer last year after 15 years. Took the parts to the dealer to match them up, and he look one look at it and said "ethanol" stop using it in these small engines. He sees this every day since the E10 became popular in this area.

 

[Hootbro]

Really? After 15 years, I could think of many other things than ethanol as being the cause to the Diaphragm taking a dump.

 

[Bluestream]

Maybe, I'm just passing on what the dealer told me

I'm glad there are so many ethanol lovers out there; I had no idea. Its basically just a farm subsidy, and the farmers certain,y deserve something. It's just that subsidies distort normal market functions, and that has unintended consequences, like increased food costs.

 

[clarklawnscape]

fwiw, i know of many professional loggers in my area using aviation fuel in their chain saws. ive never done it, but im told that only simple carb adjustments are needed to run this type of fuel. they claim the benefits are; virtually no shelf life limitations to the fuel, no carb/diapram/fuel line issues, saw runs cooler, as well as longer life from the saw. im assuming this can be done to other 2cycle engines as well

 

[Warlord]

My 2 stroke bike wouldn't start on the 6 month old gas that sat in it over winter. Drained it out and added in some fresh mix and away it went. Could have been coincidence but I think the gas just went a bit stale.

Interesting about the e10 holding water because my little generator's gas tank had a bunch of ice on the top this winter. Never seen that happen before.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: clarklawnscape
they claim the benefits are; virtually no shelf life limitations to the fuel, no carb/diapram/fuel line issues, saw runs cooler, as well as longer life from the saw. im assuming this can be done to other 2cycle engines as well


Yap, longer life for the saw, shorter life for the logger. The aviation gas is designated LL, but is has more lead than old auto leaded.

 

[Warlord]

Mixing in a bit of avgas might be ok but some claim straight avgas can lead to fouled plugs and excessive lead deposits.

 

[Bluestream]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Yap, longer life for the saw, shorter life for the logger. The aviation gas is designated LL, but is has more lead than old auto leaded.


This is very true. There is a lot of lead in 100LL av-gas. With a saw you can't get away from breathing in the exhaust. The lead causes brain damage among other nasty things

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Maybe, I'm just passing on what the dealer told me


It may be true. It also may be what he was told when he questioned manufacturer reps about all the issues over the past number of years. I've run cars from the 1980s on E10 without any issues. I've run high end seasonal equipment on E10 without any problems. Automakers are required to produce vehicles that are fully E10 compatible, and that's been the case for many years. Why are small engine manufacturers having troubles with engines built recently?

I don't doubt that E10 brings about certain issues. I do, however, suspect that many of these issues could be addressed if manufacturers spent more than seventy-five cents on the carb and fuel lines in the first place.

I can understand the issues with phase separation and what happens when E10 sits too long or evaporates from a carb. There is, however, zero excuse whatsoever for fuel lines and diaphragms breaking down from contact with ethanol. Manufacturers know that the parts they are using aren't up to the task. Yet, they keep using the same materials? I hope they aren't expecting different results by doing the same thing - that would be a tad nuts.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Maybe, I'm just passing on what the dealer told me


It may be true. It also may be what he was told when he questioned manufacturer reps about all the issues over the past number of years. I've run cars from the 1980s on E10 without any issues. I've run high end seasonal equipment on E10 without any problems. Automakers are required to produce vehicles that are fully E10 compatible, and that's been the case for many years. Why are small engine manufacturers having troubles with engines built recently?

I don't doubt that E10 brings about certain issues. I do, however, suspect that many of these issues could be addressed if manufacturers spent more than seventy-five cents on the carb and fuel lines in the first place.

I can understand the issues with phase separation and what happens when E10 sits too long or evaporates from a carb. There is, however, zero excuse whatsoever for fuel lines and diaphragms breaking down from contact with ethanol. Manufacturers know that the parts they are using aren't up to the task. Yet, they keep using the same materials? I hope they aren't expecting different results by doing the same thing - that would be a tad nuts.


I'm with Garak on this one, citing that there's no reason why small engine (OPE) manufacturers cannot comply to the new E10 standards on their parts (being cheep is one of the reasons).

Also: I find it hard to accept the fact that just because the OPE manufacturers being cheep in using E10 resistant/compliant fuel-related components and pass on their fault to us, while casually laying blame on E10. What should we, as consumers, be doing now (that ought to be different than before E10 days?) Constantly dodge the liability by pointing fingers at E10? E10 is here to stay you know, and there's no way to turn back the clock in the near future.

Bottomline: until we can find out where the actual fault lies, otherwise: casually laying blame on the gas (E10) is not going anywhere, citing that E10 or similar is here to stay...

Q.

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Maybe, I'm just passing on what the dealer told me

I'm glad there are so many ethanol lovers out there; I had no idea. Its basically just a farm subsidy, and the farmers certain,y deserve something. It's just that subsidies distort normal market functions, and that has unintended consequences, like increased food costs.

I am CERTAINLY not one of them. I`ll tell you that. Just more stuff we have to put up with and cant seem to do anything about.

 

[Kestas]

I'm amazed with all the people who say that E10 is no problem with stored equipment, in spite of all the empirical data we have.