Ethanol Gas question - carburetor

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Jun 8, 2016
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Texas, USA
Sorry if this is a bit long, but I'd love some input on a subject that I've been pondering for over a year.

A while back, I bought a '82 Mustang with the 3.3 I6, with the intent of bringing it back to life and using it as a daily driver. I spent good money putting in a new A/C, wheels, tires, shock, struts,... all the things you do to a car that's been sitting around un-used, and for the most part, un-maintained.

I had the 2-barrel carb professionally re-rebuilt by a shop that specializes in antique & show cars. I believe he did a good job, as the car did run well for a couple of weeks after I put the carb back on.

I usually get gas at the local Exxon or Shell. I had been filling the car at the Exxon by my house, but one day on my way home from work one, I stopped at Shell and filled it up with mid-grade. I don't remember any issues on the 6-mile drive home. The next day, I attempted to take it for a drive. I warmed it up in the driveway for about 5 minutes, and set off. It started idling very rough, and died at the next stoplight. It cranked, but would not fire until I slowly depressed the accelerator about 3/4. It drove fine, but when I'd stop, idle would degrade, and it would die. Repeat. Repeat. I finally pulled into a shopping center, where it died. I stepped out and heard a boiling noise. Popped the hood and discovered that the gas was boiling in the carb bowl. This was essentially flooding the engine while it ran.

I spoke with my carburetor guy and he did mention a customer's old Pontiac that had a similar issue. He cautioned that some carbureted cars have a hard time running on "modern" gas because it has a low boiling point. It's logical that when you shut down the car, air is no longer passing through to cool off the carb body, and the engine heat rises against the bowls (depending on engine design), causing the gas to boil while the car sits, essentially flooding the engine. He went on to say that he ended up installing a ventilation system on the carburetor in that Pontiac that activates at shutdown, to cool the carburetor and prevent boiling. He said that was the only thing that keeps that car drivable.

My issue: The Mustang was always hard to re-start due to this issue, before and after the carb re-build, and it didn't pose much of a problem. It was just a matter of depressing the throttle slowly while cranking, and it would fire. There were never any idling issues prior to this day, while it was burning Exxon gas. It seems that only after I filled it with Shell did this issue escalate and become an drivability issue.

My question: As alcohol has a low boiling point, is it possible that this batch of Shell gas had more ethanol than E10 is supposed to have?
 
One issue with older vehicles is that if you have something that has been sitting around for eons and it didn't have a diet of E10, the use of E10 all of the sudden can loosen dirt, varnish.. up and cause issues.
 
When ethanol gas was first introduced I had a similar problem in a carbureted car, the ethanol was getting heat soaked and boiling. Have you tried running -0- ethanol gasoline?
 
I got rid of the car, but I haven't stopped wondering about that tank of gas.

I could've attempted to get a heat shield fabricated and hoped it worked, or could've gone with a different carb (I found out later that this was an option), but by that point, I was over it. The closest ethanol-free gas at that time was 50 miles away. I see on the map that there is now a station 15 miles away in the opposite direction of my commute to work. North Dallas isn't exactly flush with E0.

Dirt, varnish, etc. was taken care of when the carb was re-built. It was like brand new.
 
Speaking from experience, changing the carburetor to intake manifold gasket sometimes fixed the problem.
 
Ethanol does not have a lower "boiling point" than gasoline, in reference to gasoline, the correct term is RVP. There is summer grade gas with Low RVP and winter grade gas with a higher RVP . A lower RVP gas has the BUTANE removed, which is the component of gas with the lowest boiling point, like room temp. low (hence the lighter in your pocket).
That being said, I don't think it has anything to do with the E10 part of the fuel, In fact, between winter and summer gas, the ethanol content never is changed.
Of course this doesn't mean you don't have excess heat near your carburetor, and it could have been an exceptionally warm day down there in Texas. Could be as simple as a heat riser valve stuck open, they had those back then you know. Well, maybe not in '82, but they had some kind of heated air intake for faster warm-up. IAC I think it was called.
 
It was about a 70 degree, completely overcast day. The pipe from the heat riser was missing and I was in no rush to replace it.

It was just interesting to me that this was the car's first tank of Shell, and it was also the first time the car became un-drivable due to boiling fuel in the bowls. Thanks for the clarification on E10. It just make me wonder what was going on with that tank of gas.

Someone suggested that I should've bought a Holley for it, as there is an adapter plate out there for the 3.3. I'm just not that great with carbs, which is the reason I had a pro re-build it, and that engine was little more than a boat anchor in my eyes.

I hope the new owner dropped a Coyote in it. LOL

Fax.jpg
 
I too had problems running Shell gasoline in two of my vehicles - our 1992 Olds 88 and our 1999 Silverado - both fuel injected. The Oldsmobile runs really poorly on Shell gas (purchased from different stations in different states), and the Silverado gets about 20 percent less gas mileage on Shell gas (again, tried from different stations in different states). Now I avoid Shell completely unless I have no other options.
 
I had the same thing happen to my 71 Cutlass. Modern fuels vaporize more easily than in decades past. Fuel injected cars keep the fuel pressurized up to the point it is injected into the manifold. No problem with vapor lock; in fact it even helps with vaporization. This leaves us carbureted folk with fuel that easily vapor locks. I met one guy that plumbed a whole system to his carbureted car to combat this problem.

Here is a thread I started on this problem: vapor lock
 
Back in the day there were ~inch thick phenolic thermal isolators you could buy and install between the carb/intake. Without closed loop engine controls the fuel mixture if lean or if timing was not sufficiently advancing the engine would create additional heat and fuel could boil in carb. As alcohol content rises mixture will naturally go lean and dumb carb cannot adjust so more heat. A holly carb was good suggestion for getting a richer mixture for cooler running. Without O2 sensors it was about reading spark plugs to get fueling right. I have a hard time with Shell top teir gas being the culprit, Maybe it was the specific station it was purchased?
 
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I can't get my head wrapped around this issue being E10 or ethanol/alcohol related. If this was the case how would they keep float bowls full in alcohol race engines... It seems like there was some other issue that coincided with this situation.

Just my $0.02
 
I can't get my head wrapped around this issue being E10 or ethanol/alcohol related. If this was the case how would they keep float bowls full in alcohol race engines... It seems like there was some other issue that coincided with this situation.

Just my $0.02
Poor design is the main issue. The position of the float bowls directly over something hot, ineffective heat shielding, combined with fuel that must boil at a lower temperature than it did in 1982. Can't speak to extra heat generated by an out-of-tune engine, as it was fully tuned with all Motorcraft components, was timed, and the jets in the original carb were cleaned and re-used.

The race engines likely have much better heat shields, carb probably sits higher and away from heat sources.
 
On F.I. cars there is a return line to tank, it keeps the fuel from dead heading making heat. I made one for my 69 Charger 440/4 bbl carb when I was putting it together because of the newer gas. I teed a 5/16" rubber gas line with a old Holley jet stuck in it off the output from the stock mechanical fuel pump. I drilled the jet out to 1/8". Ran the hose back to tank. Never had a problem from vapor lock OR wide open throttle. Read about the trick in a old Hot Rod Jalopy book. It works!!!
 
Back in the day there were ~inch thick phenolic thermal isolators you could buy and install between the carb/intake. Without closed loop engine controls the fuel mixture if lean or if timing was not sufficiently advancing the engine would create additional heat and fuel could boil in carb. As alcohol content rises mixture will naturally go lean and dumb carb cannot adjust so more heat. A holly carb was good suggestion for getting a richer mixture for cooler running. Without O2 sensors it was about reading spark plugs to get fueling right. I have a hard time with Shell top teir gas being the culprit, Maybe it was the specific station it was purchased?

Wouldn't a 1982 Mustang have one of those electronic feedback carbs with the mixture control solenoid and the oxygen sensor? I know that my mom's 1982 Plymouth Horizon sure did...(it had an idiot light on the dash marked OXYGEN SENSOR, presumably to tell you when it needed to be replaced?)
 
Well, I have no idea what the car does with the information from an O2 sensor. The only electrical connector on that carburetor is for the choke.
 
If it has an EGR valve check to make sure it is operating properly. Same with any heat risers or manifold heaters. I don’t know what Ford used in those years but GM V engines used exhaust crosovers that heated the manifold and made an EGR path.

Only issue I ever had with carbed vehicles switching to ethanol was that they would shortly plug the fuel filter due to cleaning junk out of the tank.
 
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