Engine power and oil spec

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HTSS_TR

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why some manufactures has specific oil spec for their vehicles, while their engines(normally aspirated) don't make more power or rev higher than others that don't need special oil spec ?

2016 Honda Accord: 2356 cc, 189HP @ 6400, 80HP/L, Redline 6800
2016 Mazda 6: 2488 cc, 184HP @ 5700, 74HP/L, Redline 6500
2016 Toyota Camry: 2494 cc, 178HP @ 6000 71HP/L, Redline 6300

Most other mid-priced(low $20k for base model) family sedans have normally aspirated 2.4-2.5L 4-cyl engines with about 170-190 HP for about 70-80HP/L.

Excluding forced induction engines, most Japanese brands just need an easy oil spec of current API, no special such as GM xxxx or Chrysler yyyy or vw zzzzz ...
 
VW is in Europe, so why would they spec an oil via the API/American Petroleum Institute? VW was pushing for longer OCI's long before Japanese auto makers and as such, required something better than the average API oil of the day. I would love if the cars in my signature could use say Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W30 that doesn't have approval from VW.
 
The Japanese are the kings of reliability. That means looking at every single component and continuously improving it to be as reliable as possible.

This is why they lead the objective measures of reliability especially those based on counting any reported fault no matter how minor.

I would say that designing engines that can use any oil is in keeping with their focus on reliabilty. Keep in mind that Toyotas are sold all over the world including the developing world so they need to be reliable in countries in Africa, Asia etc where who knows what oil will be used. And those markets were important for them when they began exporting and were the low cost option. So to be reliable and become the market leader, they had to design engines that could operate with basic oil.
 
That hasn't always worked out, as demonstrated by Honda's MDS system sludge and failures as well as Toyota's huge rash of sludgers that resulted in a class-action lawsuit. I'm sure there are other examples.

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with demanding your lubricant perform better than the API bare minimum. If anything, that pushes up the quality of the oils being used across the board. When is the last time you used an oil with just the API approval?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
That hasn't always worked out, as demonstrated by Honda's MDS system sludge and failures as well as Toyota's huge rash of sludgers that resulted in a class-action lawsuit. I'm sure there are other examples.

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with demanding your lubricant perform better than the API bare minimum. If anything, that pushes up the quality of the oils being used across the board. When is the last time you used an oil with just the API approval?

why don't car manufactures works with API to develop a spec that are good for normal engines ?

If each manufacture demands a special spec for their engines, how many specs will be printed on the back label ?

How many DIY actually read the back label to see if the oil he/she buying has the special spec ? Most of them just look at the oil weight.

Honda's MDS system sludge and failures has nothing to do with 4-cyl engines. No oil could fix the flaw engineered engine.
 
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Originally Posted By: skyactiv
VW is in Europe, so why would they spec an oil via the API/American Petroleum Institute? VW was pushing for longer OCI's long before Japanese auto makers and as such, required something better than the average API oil of the day. I would love if the cars in my signature could use say Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W30 that doesn't have approval from VW.

They will not.
While Japanese manufacturers recommend light oils in the US due to driving regime, in EU due to higher speeds they recommend heavier oils.
Toyota's in the EU go regularly with 5W30 and sometimes 5W40 oils, in the U.S. they go with 0W20. Japanese diesels are equally complex and that is why Japanese are not bringing their diesels to the U.S. since they require specific oils same like VW, BMW etc. and have same issues.
VW tried that here with 1.8T engine in Passat B5 and other vehicles that used that engine, and ended up in catastrophe.
 
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Well stated OVERKILL. A Dexos approved oil, plus HTO-06, and Ford wss-m2c-946 is a very strong combination of approvals that is easily affordable. The level of protection offered by Quaker State Ultimate Durability or Havoline Pro DS will keep Japanese motors protected from sludge build up better than an API SN approved oil only.
 
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We have bottles and jugs of stuff that will meet many specs - one bottle/jug. It just has like 8 different MFG approvals
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Engines and emission systems are not trivial any more. No 283 Chebbies with road draft tubes that would run on SA 30 for 100K...

Now you get engines with 100K warranties on the emission systems alone... Most of those engines will go 250,000 miles with the spec oils. They are not really that simple ...
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
why don't car manufactures works with API to develop a spec that are good for normal engines ?

If each manufacture demands a special spec for their engines, how many specs will be printed on the back label ?


They do...

every revision of the API standards is working with the industry on what problems need addressing with the current generation of "normal" engines.

See, "normal" changes with time and technology, and issues that weren't a problem (like LSPI) become an issue that needs to be dealt with.

They have working groups and panels where they kick around whose engine platforms get used to test whatever the problem is...eg. the old Nissan engine for sequence IV being phased out, the Sequence VI engine changes etc.

The specs are always evolving, and in response to the new "normal".

Panel members don't always get the test that best suits their problem area (often can't make it repeatable, or it's too expensive), or the process drags and drags.

So the OEMs then do their own thing...

You can't ask the industry to stay at the engine technology that was "normal" when SF was "normal"
 
Typical "normal" engines are the 3 in my original post: 70-80HP/L with redline of around 6000-7000 RPM.

If they don't need special oil spec XXXX, just API SN. Most normally aspirated 4-cyl engines in Japanese vehicles are very reliable with no special oil, why other engines with no more power or more reliable needs special oil ? At least it looks like a special oil with their own specs.
 
70hp/L and 6500 rpm redline was normal 25 years ago here... and those engines required normal oils (10w40 semisynth).

nowadays, those engines are underachievers....
 
Japanese cars do require special oils, most of them at least. They use ACEA oils in EU, just like everyone else.

Also they all use oil when they hit 300k. So, if you think that Toyota or Honda build better engines that lets say MB or BMW I have to disagree. There's no point in discussing chassis on European cars with Japanese since they are worlds apart.
 
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
VW is in Europe, so why would they spec an oil via the API/American Petroleum Institute? VW was pushing for longer OCI's long before Japanese auto makers and as such, required something better than the average API oil of the day. I would love if the cars in my signature could use say Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W30 that doesn't have approval from VW.

VW vehicles available for sale in US should use oil for European driving style ? Where in US can you drive with engine running at redline on public roads ?

How about Detroit engines ? Are they more powerful or higher redline than Japanese engines ?
 
The engines mentioned require 0W20 in the N/A market. This eliminates a lot of normal oils. Honda has their turbocharger oil spec as well.
Others created their own oil spec IMO because they simply could. They had obviously big enough market share to demand special specs and the oil manufacturers would comply if they wanted their oils to sell. Japanese even in the early 2000's were still small enough that any special specs would likely go unnoticed. Plus it would go against their core values being economy brands.

Other than that, lets not get into who's got the superior engineering debate again, because I sense that's the undertone of the thread.
 
What is special oil spec do for their engines ? Longer life ? better MPG ?

All three car manufactures in my original post did not require special oil for their normally aspirated engines for the last 20-30 years, just current API oil at the time their vehicles were available.

Don't take turbo engines and/or high performance engine into the talk, just family sedan engines.
 
Well, my 2003 Ford Focus specified any 5w20 oil meeting the latest API and ISLAC requirements or meeting a Ford spec.
GM's Dexos started in 2010-11 I believe.
For my Dodge, the manual oil spec MS-6395 includes formulation for using E-85 gasoline. Other than that they say to use API certified oil.

To me at least, it seems that the big three seem to have an equivalent spec for the latest API certification for their normal vehicles. I wouldn't consider them anything special.
 
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