engine heater question

[Johnny248]

Quick question for you.

My truck was built for the Canadian market. I'm not sure where, but I'm assuming it was cold because it has factory/mopar engine heater on it. I've never used it, but I was thinking about plugging it in this winter. From what I understand, it is supposed to keep the oil warm? By doing so, wouldn't it actually make the oil thicker to pump when it is cold out since the cold weight is supposed to be 10w and 30w when warm??

 

[simple_gifts]

You are misunderstanding the oil multi-grade concept. 10W at cold temps is thicker than 30 weight at operating temps.

 

[Johnny248]

I always though that cold oil did not flow as well as hot oil. Hot oil comes out like water, cold oil comes out thicker. So even though it is supposed to be a "lighter" weight oil, it still does not flow as well as a hot "heavier" oil.

 

[JustinH]

Right, a 10w oil is much thinner than a straight weight 30w at 0 degrees.

If the car is a gas motor, not diesel then you probably don't need the block heater in detroit.

Just make sure the battery is in good condition, and start the car from cold.

 

[simple_gifts]

Another way to think of it. A 5w30 thickens less when it cools than a 10w30.

 

[lipadj46]

Can't hurt to use an oil heater especially if you like to use a thick oil in the winter. I have a Katz heater that I am going to stick on my oil pan for use this winter. I will use it when it really drops.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Johnny248
Quick question for you.

My truck was built for the Canadian market. I'm not sure where, but I'm assuming it was cold because it has factory/mopar engine heater on it. I've never used it, but I was thinking about plugging it in this winter. From what I understand, it is supposed to keep the oil warm? By doing so, wouldn't it actually make the oil thicker to pump when it is cold out since the cold weight is supposed to be 10w and 30w when warm??


If is was factory installed it keeps the coolant warm, which aids somewhat in cold starting, gets the heat and defroster to work faster too. If you want to heat up the oil, you'd be better off getting an oil pan heater that sticks onto the oil pan. Wolverine makes a good one and it is easy to install.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: lipadj46
Can't hurt to use an oil heater especially if you like to use a thick oil in the winter. I have a Katz heater that I am going to stick on my oil pan for use this winter. I will use it when it really drops.


I see lots of people who think this way, but....

If you heat the oil, and nothing else, the block and all of its coolant has a heck of a lot more heat capacity than the 4-8 quarts of warm oil. Just how much of that warmth do you think it retains even after one trip to the valve cover and trickling back down through the block? Furthermore, I don't relish the idea of spraying "hot" oil all over -30C metal parts.

The wear at startup is not exclusively because the oil is thick, it's also because the moving engine parts aren't fitting together properly in the manner which they do at operating temperature. Heating the coolant or the entire block should seem to the engine (not the drivetrain and all the other parts) as if the ambient temperature was simply higher than it is. Even if somehow the oil remained at true ambient temp while the block was warmed somewhat its first trip through the block would warm it.

 

[Ken2]

Originally Posted By: Johnny248
...I was thinking about plugging it in this winter. From what I understand, it is supposed to keep the oil warm? By doing so, wouldn't it actually make the oil thicker to pump when it is cold out since the cold weight is supposed to be 10w and 30w when warm??

---Yes, plug it in. The benefits will be
(a)--quicker cabin heat for your comfort
(b)--less engine wear, 'cuz the parts are closer to the normal dimensions at normal temperatures.
(c)--cleaner exhaust sooner.
(d)--better fuel mileage sooner from a warm engine.

--No, it keeps the water jacket warm. This will warm the oil more quickly once the engine is going as the oil passes over the warm iron.

--The "W" in an oil viscosity grade is for Winter. 10W passes a cold viscosity test. 30 does not. 10w30 is certainly thicker when cold than when hot.

 

[Buick92]

I've personally used Kats oil pan heaters in the past (and present), I can definitely tell the engine turns over easier and sounds much better in extreme cold temps, that being said I think an engine block heater is better but a oil pan heater ($30) set on a timer works for me.

 

[lipadj46]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Furthermore, I don't relish the idea of spraying "hot" oil all over -30C metal parts.


They don't really get the oil that hot but regardless if a cold engine can handle going from cold to combustion in a split second I'm sure warmed oil will not cause anymore undue stress. I get I would also disagree that starting with 6 quarts of warm oil in the sump on a cold morning makes no difference.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I don't relish the idea of spraying "hot" oil all over -30C metal parts.


(big

) then hearing the engine fire off must really cause anxiety.

Most wear is unavoidable at any temp. You can eliminate any fuel enrichment induced wear with a block heater.

You can heat the oil and the coolant, but you can't simulate the thermal input of combustion. I guess if there's some thermal component to additive effectiveness, that would be reduced or eliminated. As you said, it can't be the whole story ..otherwise anyone who used a block and pan heater could experience virtually zero startup/warmup wear.

 

[ADFD1]

Any good way to warm the coolant w/o pulling a freeze out plug? Also keep in mind the oil pan warmer is on the lowest part of the engine, the bottom of the oil pan, heat rises.

 

[Gary Allan]

There are tank type heaters. Some are more compact than others. I have a KATS that's about a foot long. It apparently needs to be mounted vertically. Others that I've had in the past were just inline with the heater circuit and appeared to use normal thermal siphoning.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: lipadj46
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Furthermore, I don't relish the idea of spraying "hot" oil all over -30C metal parts.


They don't really get the oil that hot but regardless if a cold engine can handle going from cold to combustion in a split second I'm sure warmed oil will not cause anymore undue stress. I get I would also disagree that starting with 6 quarts of warm oil in the sump on a cold morning makes no difference.



The combustion is in one place - inside the cylinder. The hot oil is going everywhere - valve train, variable valve timing gear, tensioners, tiny little passages through aluminum heads (which could be close to cracking with normal thermal loads in some engines) etc... Oil does more than lubricate the cylinders and cams.

 

[Craig in Canada]

EDIT expired:

Originally Posted By: lipadj46
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Furthermore, I don't relish the idea of spraying "hot" oil all over -30C metal parts.


They don't really get the oil that hot but regardless if a cold engine can handle going from cold to combustion in a split second I'm sure warmed oil will not cause anymore undue stress. I get I would also disagree that starting with 6 quarts of warm oil in the sump on a cold morning makes no difference.



The combustion is in one place - inside the cylinder - and its expected by the designers that there will "suddenly" be combustion occurring there. The hot oil is going everywhere - valve train, variable valve timing gear, tensioners, tiny little passages through aluminum heads (which could be close to cracking with normal thermal loads in some engines) etc... and engineers/designers do NOT expect the warming to originate from there. Oil does more than lubricate the cylinders and cams these days.

This rebuttal was only against the one, most minor point? I didn't say it made NO difference, I said that it'll be cold again by the time it returns to the pan the very first time and all of the metal in the engine is still barely closer to normal operating dimensions. I think warming the oil instead of the coolant just makes people feel better because the starter sounds like it isn't working as hard against the oil pump.

On a cold -30*C night I'd rather warm the block to 10*C or even 0*C than just a puddle of oil to 60*C+ trying to achieve the same effect. A 10*C ambient fall weather start is nothing, and would certainly present lower wear, faster warm up, better fit of moving parts etc... than true ambient even if it isn't "warm" and providing instant heater operation.

I've never used any kind of heater and my winter wear is typically low single digit PPM of wear metals in 8,000km OCI even with mostly short trips. I think that attempting to prove that one kind of heater is superior for wear protection through used oil analysis would be difficult and pointless unless some of you are showing a lot more wear than that.