Ester based oils keep engines the cleanest, but do PAO based oils like M1 have any advantage in this regard over a Group III syn?
Peter
Peter
Engine cleanliness, GP III vs PAO
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That is an excellent question. I've been of the thinking that group.III would provide better cleaning because it ultimately is conventional oil which tends to have more solubility than PAO. On the other hand, I believe one of the reasons synthetic using engines stay clean is the oil tends to breakdown from oxidation less, thus leaving less deposits. I believe the PAO beats group.III in this instance. So basically we are probably close to balanced out in this regard then. I also believe that is why excellent products such as Schaeffer's 9000 works so well because it is a blend of PAO & Group.III and therefore has the benefits of both working together in synergy.
Hammer
I used Pennzoil Conventional in my 99 Ford Taurus and had it's heads off at around 60k and 110k and it was spotless. no tint, nothing..
Quaker State dino and Valovine dino in a 1978 Ford F250 with a 351 V-8 and it's spotless.
1986 VW Jetta with 250k on it using mostly Halovine dino and what ever was on sale and it's spotless. (Even used Fram oil filters until 2003)
Just change the oil every 4-5k or 6months and you'll be fine.
Trust me, If a 1978 and 1986 outfit is clean 20 years later with the oils we had back then, ANY of todays oils will be better.
Take care, bill
Quaker State dino and Valovine dino in a 1978 Ford F250 with a 351 V-8 and it's spotless.
1986 VW Jetta with 250k on it using mostly Halovine dino and what ever was on sale and it's spotless. (Even used Fram oil filters until 2003)
Just change the oil every 4-5k or 6months and you'll be fine.
Trust me, If a 1978 and 1986 outfit is clean 20 years later with the oils we had back then, ANY of todays oils will be better.
Take care, bill
i agree with bill. if any oil is changed at a reasonable interval then an engine should stay clean.
Bill thats' quite the testimonial; not a hint of brown varnish?
Peter
Peter
On the Taurus, Not even a hint. The block and everything spotless... (the 2nd set of heads only had around 50k on them before the 3rd set)
On the F250, Slight but clean.
On the Jetta, Slight near the exh valve area. And on the Valve cover towards the Fill area there was some color..
On the F250 and Jetta, you could still see the texture of the metal. Could not scrape it with a fingernail. No problems there..
I've seen some real messed up engines and one of them the owner said since his outfit is burning a quart every 1500 miles, why change it??
He thought that since he was putting in oil all the time, he'd change the filter here and there. The last time we could find when he change it was almost 20k miles!
Reason why he was getting work on his engine? It was running poorly and would not pass smog. When he was done he had a engine out of a crashed outfit for around $1200 installed.
You could take a putty knife and just scoop the stuff out. (Wished I had a Digital Camera then.. I'd be posting that photo!) I did not see the bottom end though. It was prob not too pretty either.
It was a Ford Ranger truck btw.. late 1980s model. Had about 70-80k on it and maybe 3-4 oil changes I'd bet. (but a lots of oil if it was going thru 1 quart every 1.5k miles..)
Take care, Bill
PS: My cousons 1990 F-150 with a 351 is going to get some new valve cover gaskets since they are leaking and I've told him to take photos for me. He changes his oil with Napa brand oil and Napa filters every 7,500 miles.. So about once a year... his truck just turned 100k and he drives it short miles around town and up in the mountains. Idles alot when he is out looking for deer. He gets the oil (conventional 10w30) for free since he works there. This will be interesting for me.. I've told him to change it more often..
"I used Pennzoil Conventional in my 99 Ford Taurus and had it's heads off at around 60k and 110k and it was spotless. no tint, nothing..
Quaker State dino and Valovine dino in a 1978 Ford F250 with a 351 V-8 and it's spotless.
1986 VW Jetta with 250k on it using mostly Halovine dino and what ever was on sale and it's spotless. (Even used Fram oil filters until 2003)
Just change the oil every 4-5k or 6months and you'll be fine.
Trust me, If a 1978 and 1986 outfit is clean 20 years later with the oils we had back then, ANY of todays oils will be better."
Bill you nailed the whole deal I agree 200%.
bruce
Quaker State dino and Valovine dino in a 1978 Ford F250 with a 351 V-8 and it's spotless.
1986 VW Jetta with 250k on it using mostly Halovine dino and what ever was on sale and it's spotless. (Even used Fram oil filters until 2003)
Just change the oil every 4-5k or 6months and you'll be fine.
Trust me, If a 1978 and 1986 outfit is clean 20 years later with the oils we had back then, ANY of todays oils will be better."
Bill you nailed the whole deal I agree 200%.
bruce
Testimonials of cleanliness with conventional oils are nice and true but don't provide the whole scientific truth. The majority of car owners have engines that are easy on oil. The rest of us don't. Even those who do still might want to do very long OCI. The latter 2 groups of drivers are the only ones who should even be concerned with such questions of Group 3 vs 4 vs 5.
With that said, there are at least several very thorough test results posted online comparing Group 3 vs Group 4 oil in many categories. You'll have to search for them since I don't remember where I've read them. But the elevator version of the final outcome is yes Group 4 is slightly to moderately superior to Group 3 considering all factors. One big reason is because even Group 3 oils still have some unstable and undesirable compounds in them that aren't removed by the processing they undergo.
Esters vary so much in performance that I wouldn't say that all of them can keep the engine cleaner than a PAO oil. A poor ester can be made and surely has been made. There are also some good articles online (and links to them on this site) discussing the different types of esters along with their pros/cons.
Additives make a huge difference as well. Enough to be able to make a Group 3/4/5 mix motor oil outperform a Group 4/5 mix motor oil. A thread recently posted on this site about 5W-40 shows this.
Sorry for saying such and such is online and "go find it yourself". I've had a bit to drink tonight but not enough that I don't know what I'm saying.
With that said, there are at least several very thorough test results posted online comparing Group 3 vs Group 4 oil in many categories. You'll have to search for them since I don't remember where I've read them. But the elevator version of the final outcome is yes Group 4 is slightly to moderately superior to Group 3 considering all factors. One big reason is because even Group 3 oils still have some unstable and undesirable compounds in them that aren't removed by the processing they undergo.
Esters vary so much in performance that I wouldn't say that all of them can keep the engine cleaner than a PAO oil. A poor ester can be made and surely has been made. There are also some good articles online (and links to them on this site) discussing the different types of esters along with their pros/cons.
Additives make a huge difference as well. Enough to be able to make a Group 3/4/5 mix motor oil outperform a Group 4/5 mix motor oil. A thread recently posted on this site about 5W-40 shows this.
Sorry for saying such and such is online and "go find it yourself". I've had a bit to drink tonight but not enough that I don't know what I'm saying.
A G-III has about the same solvency as as PAO wich is next to nothing compared to G-V and G-I oils. So this effective elimanates any advanrage for G-III. The difference though is in flash point,oxidation resistance, cold cranking and HTHS retenion of the base stocks. Then you have the addtie [package wich is just as important as the base stock. In general the better the base stock the better the additive package. Just look at Redline,Motul,Fuchs etc..... as compared to Syntec or Valvoline...........
When looking at the engine while adding oil the 93 Taurus with 197k miles the engine has a splotchy brown varnish. It's had pretty much 3k oil changes at the dealer for the first 100k to 120k miles, and elsewhere with a dino/synthetic blend since then. The last three changes have been with 100% Mobil 1 T&S at 5k intervals. The car had a bout of heavy oil consumption prior to using the 5W40. Something that may or may not be related is that it ran kind of hot for awhile, due to a hotter running thermostat that had been installed. I needed to turn on the heater in the summer while stuck in traffic once in awhile too keep it from overheating. The replacement thermostat runs very cool, and I've added a 'winter cover' over part of the radiator.
The 99 Taurus with 97k miles is spotless, no varnish. It had 3k miles dealer changes for about the first 70k miles, with a dino/synthetic blend elsewhere after that, and the last two changes with 100% Mobil 1 T&S at 5k intervals. It's always run at an ideal temp, never getting past 12:00 on the gage.
The 99 Taurus with 97k miles is spotless, no varnish. It had 3k miles dealer changes for about the first 70k miles, with a dino/synthetic blend elsewhere after that, and the last two changes with 100% Mobil 1 T&S at 5k intervals. It's always run at an ideal temp, never getting past 12:00 on the gage.
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