Which one do you guys prefer and why? I know Ford had some issues with the Getrag in the Fiesta/Focus, but it seems less complex than a conventional automatic. Is it more or less reliable?
Dual Clutch Transmission vs. Conventional Automatic
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Depends on the vehicle. A Fiesta or Focus doesn’t really need one, but putting a conventional auto in a super car just seems wrong.
That being said, pretty hard to beat the ZF8 for conventional automatics.
That being said, pretty hard to beat the ZF8 for conventional automatics.
Torque converter every day. The DCT is just not reliable, and the odd behavior is unacceptable. It has NO place on non-performance cars. Regular automatic have gotten so good. There is no reason to put up with DCT lurching when the ZF8 exists.
The DCT is NOT a substitute for a regular automatic, as Ford learned the hard way. The Fiesta's DCT has no paddles, but good driving with a DCT requires using the paddles. They recalled it a dozen times, but they never got it right. All they had to do was replace it with a real transmission.
Ford went back to a regular automatic after they stopped selling the Focus and Fiesta in the US
Honda makes a DCT with a torque converter. It's better than other dual clutches, but it's still not as good as a regular automatic.
The DCT is NOT a substitute for a regular automatic, as Ford learned the hard way. The Fiesta's DCT has no paddles, but good driving with a DCT requires using the paddles. They recalled it a dozen times, but they never got it right. All they had to do was replace it with a real transmission.
Ford went back to a regular automatic after they stopped selling the Focus and Fiesta in the US
Honda makes a DCT with a torque converter. It's better than other dual clutches, but it's still not as good as a regular automatic.
A torque convertor is a loss for anything other than off-idle. But that's where it really shines! Torque multiplication, plus if you can keep the ATF cool, you can "abuse" it heavily and it'll just shed the heat. A DCT would have to slip, and slip continuously, wearing away clutch material.
A performance car, DCT makes sense. Plain Jane runabout, and pickup trucks, TC. If you want to blur the line between a commuter and a performance car... I'd err on TC but I would not be surprised that others would prefer DCT.
I would *think* that a TC would hold the edge in smoothness. Just seems like a slip & slide should be able to easily transition between soft shifts and as hard as one wants through some programming--not sure how smooth a DCT can be made ultimately.
A performance car, DCT makes sense. Plain Jane runabout, and pickup trucks, TC. If you want to blur the line between a commuter and a performance car... I'd err on TC but I would not be surprised that others would prefer DCT.
I would *think* that a TC would hold the edge in smoothness. Just seems like a slip & slide should be able to easily transition between soft shifts and as hard as one wants through some programming--not sure how smooth a DCT can be made ultimately.
the main issue with fords powershift was a dry clutch design and the frictional properties were widely varied based upon conditions.
there was no way to make it act consistantly due to the wide frictional variance (from what I read dumbed down version)
its much easier to design a wet clutch dct system with that behaves with more consistency.
Also some new dct have a torque converter in front of a DCT transmission.. the TC is only used at low speed.
there was no way to make it act consistantly due to the wide frictional variance (from what I read dumbed down version)
its much easier to design a wet clutch dct system with that behaves with more consistency.
Also some new dct have a torque converter in front of a DCT transmission.. the TC is only used at low speed.
Conventional automatic transmission FTW.
I like the idea, but my behind the wheel experience with my dearly departed work car (2013 Focus) with the DPS6 Powershift
...was truly AWFUL
That transmission shouldn't have left the drawing board, it wasn't ready
When it was good, it was good, but once it wore in stop and go city life it was all the lurchiness of a manual, but without the control of a clutch pedal
I drove a '17 Passat with their DSG, not much better
I hear the marriage of a torque converter with a DCT is the magic sauce for city use, smooth take off from the lights, but responsive once up to speed
...was truly AWFUL
That transmission shouldn't have left the drawing board, it wasn't ready
When it was good, it was good, but once it wore in stop and go city life it was all the lurchiness of a manual, but without the control of a clutch pedal
I drove a '17 Passat with their DSG, not much better
I hear the marriage of a torque converter with a DCT is the magic sauce for city use, smooth take off from the lights, but responsive once up to speed
Propflux01
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can anyone shed any light as to what may have changed in teh Hyundai world of DCT's? It was used in the Turbo Tuscon for a couple three years, then removed in favour of a standard auto, and the turbo 1.6L was dropped. A lawsuit was taken out, and the DCT was permanently discontinued in 2018. Then, a newer vehicle, the KONA, has the 1.6L turbo and DCT again in it. Why would they put it back in a car if it was so bad that it cost them a lawsuit? Is this transmission somehow different than the earlier version?
I love my DSG in my VW - great transmission. Holds all the power I can throw at it (I do have a DSG tune), lightning fast shifts, launch control, paddle shifters. I have a Focus and I purposely avoided their DCT and went stick b/c it's a dumpster fire w/r to problems/reliability. The issue many have with them that don't understand what it is and that it isn't a traditional auto w/r to slow-speed feel etc.
The VW DSG or (Direktschaltgetriebe) snap off super smooth shifts and do well in Traffic. Earlier single clutch gearboxes like Ferraris F1 and the Lamborghini E-gear were lighter but tended to have reduced clutch life especially in stop and go traffic . Ford pushed the dry-clutch gearbox out the door hence all of the issues, the odd thing is that European Fords got wet-clutch dct transmission.
I don't want a DCT in particular however, I drove only one vehicle with a DCT/DSG and it was fine. But, I drove it on a mainly flat road with no STOP SIGNS or STOP LIGHTS on HILLS. Each time I came to a stop, it was a non issue but, I could feel the clutch slipping at each start. You'd need to get used to it especially on hills as they can & will roll back.
And those who think they're getting an regular automatic transmission the way we're used to conventional automatics, could be in for a surprise.
I learned how to drive on a manual transmission at age 16 yrs old but, that's not what I want to drive today. Mainly due to my driving style and the area in which I live/climate/age etc.
I would think that the DCT would be the perfect transmission for a performance car or for anyone who prefers a manual transmission where one isn't available.
I mean, I love my CVT(not DCT) as long as it holds up, as it has thus far. My only concern is their reputation for reliability, not how they perform/or lack of.
And those who think they're getting an regular automatic transmission the way we're used to conventional automatics, could be in for a surprise.
I learned how to drive on a manual transmission at age 16 yrs old but, that's not what I want to drive today. Mainly due to my driving style and the area in which I live/climate/age etc.
I would think that the DCT would be the perfect transmission for a performance car or for anyone who prefers a manual transmission where one isn't available.
I mean, I love my CVT(not DCT) as long as it holds up, as it has thus far. My only concern is their reputation for reliability, not how they perform/or lack of.
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I prefer torque converter for reliability. ZF transmissions are pretty bullet proof, but in top of that smooth and quick.
Also, with the ridiculous power cars make nowadays, parasitic losses from a torque converter aren't even felt.
If I had to get a dual clutch it would be for racing and only the PDK.
Also, with the ridiculous power cars make nowadays, parasitic losses from a torque converter aren't even felt.
If I had to get a dual clutch it would be for racing and only the PDK.
VW DSG is pretty good. My Alltrack DSG feels like a manual transmission but somebody else (computer) is doing the clutch and shifter work far better than any human ever could.
A lot of TC automatics are really good today too. I don't think i have a strong preference either way. I am firmly against CVT transmissions. I even consider many modern manual cars in a negative light. Too many issues with rev hang with many modern manuals. If a camaro v8 makes it into my life it will be a manual but ordinary pedestrian cars in manual are just not as fun to drive as older manuals were.
A lot of TC automatics are really good today too. I don't think i have a strong preference either way. I am firmly against CVT transmissions. I even consider many modern manual cars in a negative light. Too many issues with rev hang with many modern manuals. If a camaro v8 makes it into my life it will be a manual but ordinary pedestrian cars in manual are just not as fun to drive as older manuals were.
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One reason dual clutches are bad for the average person is that people unnecessarily creep forward in automatics. Anybody who's only ever driven an automatic is notorious for this. Light turns red. People come to a stop. Everyone inches forward multiple times.
This is exacerbated in bumper to bumper traffic on the highway. An experienced manual driver will crawl in first gear reducing stops to a minimum, but not your typical auto driver. Speed up, stop, inch forward, stop, go quickly, stop, inch forward, stop, inch forward....
This is exacerbated in bumper to bumper traffic on the highway. An experienced manual driver will crawl in first gear reducing stops to a minimum, but not your typical auto driver. Speed up, stop, inch forward, stop, go quickly, stop, inch forward, stop, inch forward....
The inching thing drives me up the wall, but it’s better than those morons who leave 1-3 car lengths between them and the vehicle in front of them or the line at a stop light.
Either if your looking for a current model VW. Their 8 speed conventional snaps off shifts so quickly you may think it is a DSG. Their DSG's are the top of the top (for mainstream) as far as I am concerned. I have driven a Passat equipped with the VR6 3.6 / DSG combo and that fired off lightning fast shifts that were completely imperceivable.
I haven’t ridden in a dsg in a long time, but I’m very surprised with the tuning Lexus eeked out of the 8 speed conventional AT in our 2015 gs. It is the first shiftable automatic I’ve driven that i feel is on par with a manual in good hands and feet. It’s fast and firm, rev-matches better than I can on downshift, and leaves the TC locked once its active. This aisin trans is shared with their pickups too. What’s even more interesting is that the ratios seem to have different sized gaps between different gears - like there’s a wallop of a difference between 2 and 3, but they covered for it in the programming. Mostly, I leave it in auto, but as solid and snappy as it is, I would think that it reduces the gap in performance against a true DSG, while retaining known reliability of a conventional automatic. Why doesn’t everyone invest in this kind of programming? The wa580 was a wonderful transmission, and this kind of programming would have lit that beast on fire. The only thing I can think of that would have to be done in this vein is to really beef up the TC lockup clutch to handle real power....
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edyvw
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It is perfect example that transmission is as good as company is willing to pay for it.
Getrag supplies dual clutch to Ferrari and BMW.
Now, dual clutch is more complex and requires more sophistication. Big problem is that it cannot haul a lot, and to sustain huge torque it becomes ridiculously expensive. ZF makes probably best dual clutch, PDK, but price is forbidden fruit to everyone but Porsche. Getrag is close second.
So, question is why? Why if ZF8 exists that can take all the torque, hp, haul anything, and be most reliable transmission? And, it is so fast that you, driver really cannot see difference between dual clutch and ZF8.
If they used wet clutch DCTs in 'civilian cars', allowed the wet clutch fluid to be changed out along with the motor oil, and then had a HUGE WARNING AND INFO PACKET on every DCT purchase, they'd do well.
But it's like the auto makers decided that DCTs could be marketed to the auto transmission crowd and that was about all the effort they put into it.
But it's like the auto makers decided that DCTs could be marketed to the auto transmission crowd and that was about all the effort they put into it.
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