Dry Filter

Spitty · Feb 10, 2005

I have just done the third OCI on my re-built Toyota 22R, as it happened this was a cold oil change (the engine had not been run prior to draining the oil) all went well, except that when the (Pure-one Purolator) filter was removed, the inside was Dry! I even put my finger inside to feel the relieve valve and it felt Dry!
Whats going on?

I have noticed that upon starting my oil warning light goes out almost instantly. The engine must be getting oil or I would know it by now.
I have noticed that the oil is a lot Blacker than I would expect for a new engine.

OldCars · Feb 10, 2005

You forgot to mention the brand of oil filter in use.

OldCars · Feb 10, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by OldCars:
You forgot to mention the brand of oil filter in use.

Oops never mind the above. Seems you must have had a defective filter valve.

427Z06 · Feb 11, 2005

The ADBV leaked the oil out while it sat and cooled off. I'm guessing the filter's threads point horizontal or in a downward direction. My experience has been that you'll find an occassional bad one from all brands/makes of oil filters.

Spitty · Feb 11, 2005

I can see the anti drainback valve letting the oil drain back, But to that extent! as I say, the inside was 'dry to the touch'. If the anti drainbackvalve would not 'open' then I would not get oil in the filter, ergo, I would not get oil out of the filter, and I would have a scrap engine by now.

Shaman · Feb 11, 2005

If you are really worried, stick a new filter on, fill with oil, start up engine for 30 seconds, then shut it off and check the filter.

mjo · Feb 11, 2005

Isn't there a bypass valve on some cars that resides somewhere in the filter mount? In my opinion if such a valve were stuck open, then all oil will pass around the filter.

427Z06 · Feb 11, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Spitty:
If the anti drainbackvalve would not 'open' then I would not get oil in the filter, ergo, I would not get oil out of the filter, and I would have a scrap engine by now.

When the engine, and therefore the oil in the filter is hot, you'd be surprised at just how dry a filter can get. I experienced this myself. As someone suggested, change the filter, maybe a even a different brand, and check again.

What is the year and model is that Toyota 22R from?

[ February 11, 2005, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]

Filter guy · Feb 11, 2005

Well maybe i'm missing something here..

But you put your finger down where the bypass valve is. This is down the center tube area. It's supposed to be dry.

The oil is inside the filter can on the other side of the media.

If you cut the can open and there was no oil inside, then ( if this application called for one) the anti-drain in the filter allowed the oil out of the can and back to the sump ( oil pan). If the filter is not required to have an anti-drain, whomever rebuilt your motor did not put an anti-drain in the block where it should have been.

Filter guy · Feb 11, 2005

btw..if you want to check your filter to see if it has an anti-drain...look at the inlet holes ( the small holes) if you see a black or reddish colored gasket looking material there, that is the anti-drain.

If you see the metal ( paper if it's Fram) of the endcap of the filter element, then there isn't an anti-drain in the filter. ( and probaly isn't required).

srivett · Feb 11, 2005

You could pull your new oil filter off tomorrow morning to have another look. It's okay to pull them off and put them back on again as long as nothing falls in the filter.

Steve

[ February 11, 2005, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: srivett ]

Spitty · Feb 11, 2005

Good Idea, I will take the filter off after the engine has been running, I should see some oil then.
If I don't I'll post right away.

It's an 89 22R from a Pick up.

ZR2RANDO · Feb 11, 2005

I think alot of those ADBVs don't work as well as they should, some do better than others, and it very much depends on the orientation of the filter. My Nissan truck has the filter at the 10:00 position with the holes side down. I got in the habit years ago of draining the oil with the motor hot, and then letting the truck sit overnight just so that filter would drain as much as possible (really helped with the mess!).
Most of the time it was fairly empty (some brands emptier than others). Remember, if the holes point down the oil still drains back out of the clean side (outlet) hole back into the motor. That oil will drain (by gravity only) through that paper/media and out that outlet hole. The ADBV only keeps the dirty side from going backwards out the inlet holes. That ADBV is really better described as an attempt at being a "one way" valve, it helps keep at least SOME oil in the filter for the next start up, filter angle helps the most though.

427Z06 · Feb 11, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:
But you put your finger down where the bypass valve is. This is down the center tube area. It's supposed to be dry.

Not necessarily. Many engines keep a column of oil stacked up inside the engine, in the center column of the filter, backing up through the media to the outer can and finally back against the ADBV. ZR2RANDO has a good description for the other design cases.

According to the WIX website, this is the filter speced for that engine:

Part Number: 51348
Style: Spin-On Lube Filter
Type: Full Flow
Media: Paper
Height: 3.404
Outer Diameter Top: 2.921
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed
Thread Size: 3/4-16
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: 8-11
Anti-Drain Back Valve: Yes

Gasket Diameters
Number O.D. I.D. Thk.
Attached 2.734 2.430 0.226

[ February 12, 2005, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]

tdi-rick · Feb 12, 2005

I'm just going through a bad batch of ADBV's on one of our vehicles.
I've been through three Donaldsons (two from the same batch, all out of Donaldsons ?Indonesian joint venture plant), two Wix, which were actually Indonesian made Sakura's (at a Wix price

) , and now a Korean made Purolator. (the worst so far)

Prior to this, we used Donaldson without a problem.
Next try will be Fleetguard and/or Ryco.

ZR2RANDO · Feb 12, 2005

Hey 427Z06,
I always learned to pump uphill, and let gravity do the downhill thing...guess the carmakers didn't always take the same class huh?

maybe they did?

Filter guy · Feb 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by srivett:
You could pull your new oil filter off tomorrow morning to have another look. It's okay to pull them off and put them back on again as long as nothing falls in the filter.

Steve

Sounds a good idea but..

You're gasket takes a set after it heats. When you remove it make darn sure that no gasket bits remain on the mounting surface. This will interfere with when you put it back on. Not to mention make the gasket uneven when you replace the filter.

There is also a compression set and the gasket compresses. How much it "rebounds" ( part of this is the durometer of the gasket compound) when you remove the filter determines whether or not it will reinstall at the same toruque requirements.

For a $2-5 filter..why remove it and replace it?

427Z06 · Feb 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:
Sounds a good idea but..

You're gasket takes a set after it heats. When you remove it make darn sure that no gasket bits remain on the mounting surface. This will interfere with when you put it back on. Not to mention make the gasket uneven when you replace the filter.

There is also a compression set and the gasket compresses. How much it "rebounds" ( part of this is the durometer of the gasket compound) when you remove the filter determines whether or not it will reinstall at the same toruque requirements.

For a $2-5 filter..why remove it and replace it?

Hmmm...to test your theory I just went out into my garage and pulled a gasket off a filter that had 1400 miles of Texas summer heat on it and compared it to a identical one on a new unused filter. They're virtually indistinguishable visually and by my roughly calibrated finger durometer. While it may not be the ideal practice, I wouldn't sweat it for troubleshooting purposes.

[ February 13, 2005, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]

427Z06 · Feb 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by ZR2RANDO:
Hey 427Z06,
I always learned to pump uphill, and let gravity do the downhill thing...guess the carmakers didn't always take the same class huh?

maybe they did?

srivett · Feb 12, 2005

Filter guy:

In my case I reuse the filters because they are worth over 10 bucks and contain another 5 bucks worth of synthetic oil.

You do make a good point and now I'll know what went wrong if I ever run into problems.

Cheers, Steve

Dry Filter

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