The dodge is cleary faster no matter how you look at it....
Drove a rental Charger today
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Wow. The Broward sheriff is so dissatisfied with the Charger that he's added two Challengers to the fleet.
Click here.
Click here.
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That car behind him is pretty new so it's understandable if the driver in his hot Mustang, glancing at the rear view mirror, doesn't immediately pick up on that massive grille closing in on his rear bumper, but he definitely will pick up on it once the red and blue lights start flashing.
Then comes surprise number two: It's not a Ford Crown Victoria that has pulled him over. It's a Dodge Charger. A what? Yes, a Dodge Charger police car, with all the lovely lights and such that you don't want to be seeing behind you.
The last time Chrysler Corp. had a Dodge in this fight, so to speak, was more than 15 years ago, long before Chrysler became part of DaimlerChrysler and at a time when Dodge was in a losing battle against Ford for the lucrative right to provide the nation's police car.
Now Dodge is coming back and is doing so with a fury.
Perhaps the best way to see this new car in action, and find out how the cops like it, is to stop by the Police Department in Martinez, where Commander Tom Simonetti has arranged for the city to buy three of them -- one unmarked (it looks like a simple old Dodge sedan) and two marked.
"We thought we'd take a chance with them," Simonetti said the other day of the new police cars. "We just want to see what it does. Does it perform as well as everyone says it does?"
Actually, it gets extremely high marks in the niche world of police car testing. The Michigan State Police, which runs annual tests that are examined closely by police agencies all over the nation, thinks the Dodge Charger is a real star.
For the past 15 years, Ford has dominated the ranks of police cars. Some 300,000 of its "CVPI" (Crown Victoria Police Interceptors) are in service nationwide -- think of all those violent pursuits in the TV show "Cops," where nearly all the pursuing cars are Fords. (In their sales code, they're called "P71" cars and you can find hundreds of used -- many extremely used -- examples of them for sale on the Internet. P71 always appears somewhere in the VIN -- vehicle identification number -- of a Ford built specifically for police use.) Ford sold 45,500 new police cars in 2005 and expects to sell 50,000 this year, according to Ford spokesman John Clinard. Ford's stock police engine is the 4.6-liter V8 putting out 250 horsepower.
Chrysler spokesman Scott Brown said it was not clear how many of their new Chargers they have sold to police agencies, but suffice to say it's not many.
"Most have been in the range of three to six cars," Brown said of the agencies that have bought the cars. "A lot of municipalities are waiting to see what happens with the California Highway Patrol." The CHP, with 2,110 patrol cars, is one of the biggest law enforcement agencies in the United States and many agencies follow the CHP lead on choosing patrol car cars and motorcycles. CHP spokesman Steve Kohler said the annual bid process for new patrol cars is still under way and the CHP won't know until sometime in the spring of 2007 what kind of cars the agency will be buying.
Meanwhile, the police who do have the Dodges say they love them; motor power, alone, may be one reason. The new cars use Dodge's 5.7-liter V8 hemi engine putting out 340 horsepower, 90 more than the Ford. In the Michigan State Police tests, the Dodge beat the Ford in all three categories: in acceleration and top speed testing, the Dodge police car did zero to 60 mph in 6.5 seconds; the Ford in 8.7. The Dodge's top speed was 148 mph, the Ford's 130. In the braking test, the Dodge's stopping distance from 60 mph was 10 feet less than the Ford's. And the Dodge beat the Ford on the handling test.
In Oregon, where the State Police has bought 45 Dodges for its fleet of 300 patrol cars, Lt. Gregg Hastings says "the troopers are real pleased with their performance. Response from the field has been real positive. The cars are comfortable, and there's enough room inside for transporting bad guys."
In the Bay Area, there's a sprinkling of Dodges in a field dominated by Fords. Besides Martinez, the Chargers are also cropping up at police departments in San Ramon and San Carlos.
In Martinez, Officer Jeff VanderMeulen pulled his dark blue and white Charger up to a stop near the Police Department. VanderMeulen who says he is "pushing 50" and has been a cop for 29 years, most of them in Martinez, found that the Dodge "is more responsive than the Crown Vic. It handles more nimbly, and it's getting a lot of response from the public. People will come up and you'll hear, 'hey, it's a hemi.' When other cops see it, they seem sort of envious."
Cpl. Brian Carter, who was driving a new Ford Crown Victoria the other day, said he's done a few patrols in the Charger and thinks it is "far superior" to the Ford. "It's a Porsche versus a Volkswagen cabriolet. In all ways -- handling, acceleration, comfort, braking."
The big unknown, however, is how the Dodge Chargers will hold up over the years. Some departments retire their cars at around 60,000 miles, but many cities and counties, faced with increasingly tight budgets, will drive their cars up to 100,000 miles and sometimes more. At that point, the cars may be falling apart, but since they're a new breed right now, nobody knows.
Simonetti said the new Dodge cost $24,200 before tax and beat out Ford's bid by $250 per car. There is one other car that might well beat the new police Dodge Charger, and that is the Dodge Charger SRT8, using Dodge's 425-horsepower hemi engine.
Asked if he'd rather have his cops in the SRT8, Simonetti smiled and said "the 90 extra horsepower they already have over the Ford is plenty." Besides, Dodge does not currently offer that engine for police work.
E-mail Michael Taylor at [email protected].
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/17/MTGRTN0JF71.DTL
This article appeared on page J - 1 of the San Francisco Chronicle
Then comes surprise number two: It's not a Ford Crown Victoria that has pulled him over. It's a Dodge Charger. A what? Yes, a Dodge Charger police car, with all the lovely lights and such that you don't want to be seeing behind you.
The last time Chrysler Corp. had a Dodge in this fight, so to speak, was more than 15 years ago, long before Chrysler became part of DaimlerChrysler and at a time when Dodge was in a losing battle against Ford for the lucrative right to provide the nation's police car.
Now Dodge is coming back and is doing so with a fury.
Perhaps the best way to see this new car in action, and find out how the cops like it, is to stop by the Police Department in Martinez, where Commander Tom Simonetti has arranged for the city to buy three of them -- one unmarked (it looks like a simple old Dodge sedan) and two marked.
"We thought we'd take a chance with them," Simonetti said the other day of the new police cars. "We just want to see what it does. Does it perform as well as everyone says it does?"
Actually, it gets extremely high marks in the niche world of police car testing. The Michigan State Police, which runs annual tests that are examined closely by police agencies all over the nation, thinks the Dodge Charger is a real star.
For the past 15 years, Ford has dominated the ranks of police cars. Some 300,000 of its "CVPI" (Crown Victoria Police Interceptors) are in service nationwide -- think of all those violent pursuits in the TV show "Cops," where nearly all the pursuing cars are Fords. (In their sales code, they're called "P71" cars and you can find hundreds of used -- many extremely used -- examples of them for sale on the Internet. P71 always appears somewhere in the VIN -- vehicle identification number -- of a Ford built specifically for police use.) Ford sold 45,500 new police cars in 2005 and expects to sell 50,000 this year, according to Ford spokesman John Clinard. Ford's stock police engine is the 4.6-liter V8 putting out 250 horsepower.
Chrysler spokesman Scott Brown said it was not clear how many of their new Chargers they have sold to police agencies, but suffice to say it's not many.
"Most have been in the range of three to six cars," Brown said of the agencies that have bought the cars. "A lot of municipalities are waiting to see what happens with the California Highway Patrol." The CHP, with 2,110 patrol cars, is one of the biggest law enforcement agencies in the United States and many agencies follow the CHP lead on choosing patrol car cars and motorcycles. CHP spokesman Steve Kohler said the annual bid process for new patrol cars is still under way and the CHP won't know until sometime in the spring of 2007 what kind of cars the agency will be buying.
Meanwhile, the police who do have the Dodges say they love them; motor power, alone, may be one reason. The new cars use Dodge's 5.7-liter V8 hemi engine putting out 340 horsepower, 90 more than the Ford. In the Michigan State Police tests, the Dodge beat the Ford in all three categories: in acceleration and top speed testing, the Dodge police car did zero to 60 mph in 6.5 seconds; the Ford in 8.7. The Dodge's top speed was 148 mph, the Ford's 130. In the braking test, the Dodge's stopping distance from 60 mph was 10 feet less than the Ford's. And the Dodge beat the Ford on the handling test.
In Oregon, where the State Police has bought 45 Dodges for its fleet of 300 patrol cars, Lt. Gregg Hastings says "the troopers are real pleased with their performance. Response from the field has been real positive. The cars are comfortable, and there's enough room inside for transporting bad guys."
In the Bay Area, there's a sprinkling of Dodges in a field dominated by Fords. Besides Martinez, the Chargers are also cropping up at police departments in San Ramon and San Carlos.
In Martinez, Officer Jeff VanderMeulen pulled his dark blue and white Charger up to a stop near the Police Department. VanderMeulen who says he is "pushing 50" and has been a cop for 29 years, most of them in Martinez, found that the Dodge "is more responsive than the Crown Vic. It handles more nimbly, and it's getting a lot of response from the public. People will come up and you'll hear, 'hey, it's a hemi.' When other cops see it, they seem sort of envious."
Cpl. Brian Carter, who was driving a new Ford Crown Victoria the other day, said he's done a few patrols in the Charger and thinks it is "far superior" to the Ford. "It's a Porsche versus a Volkswagen cabriolet. In all ways -- handling, acceleration, comfort, braking."
The big unknown, however, is how the Dodge Chargers will hold up over the years. Some departments retire their cars at around 60,000 miles, but many cities and counties, faced with increasingly tight budgets, will drive their cars up to 100,000 miles and sometimes more. At that point, the cars may be falling apart, but since they're a new breed right now, nobody knows.
Simonetti said the new Dodge cost $24,200 before tax and beat out Ford's bid by $250 per car. There is one other car that might well beat the new police Dodge Charger, and that is the Dodge Charger SRT8, using Dodge's 425-horsepower hemi engine.
Asked if he'd rather have his cops in the SRT8, Simonetti smiled and said "the 90 extra horsepower they already have over the Ford is plenty." Besides, Dodge does not currently offer that engine for police work.
E-mail Michael Taylor at [email protected].
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/17/MTGRTN0JF71.DTL
This article appeared on page J - 1 of the San Francisco Chronicle
That is a cool picture... Should take care of the Mustangs...
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Wow. The Broward sheriff is so dissatisfied with the Charger that he's added two Challengers to the fleet.
Click here.
They only bought 2...Broward County buys every police package car there is when they first come out whether its good or bad...They have a bigger budget then most counties when it comes to cars.
Wow. The Broward sheriff is so dissatisfied with the Charger that he's added two Challengers to the fleet.
Click here.
They only bought 2...Broward County buys every police package car there is when they first come out whether its good or bad...They have a bigger budget then most counties when it comes to cars.
And this one looks very good...
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Originally Posted By: rszappa1
Sure they will....
You are clueless.
The 5.7L Charger runs an almost 15-second ET at 99.2Mph.
My '87 GT T-Top ran [email protected] BONE STOCK with 280,000Km on it. With a couple of bolt-ons it was running 13.8 @ 101.
Almost every V8 Fox in North America would out accelerate one. Not to mention the 99+ Mustang GT, the Mach, the Cobras, F-bodies.
The '03/'04 Cobra runs 12's out of the box. On STREET RUBBER. Even the LS1 powered F-bodies ran bottom 13's. Is a 15 second car going to hang with EITHER of those cars? Not a chance.
Sure they will....
You are clueless.
The 5.7L Charger runs an almost 15-second ET at 99.2Mph.
My '87 GT T-Top ran [email protected] BONE STOCK with 280,000Km on it. With a couple of bolt-ons it was running 13.8 @ 101.
Almost every V8 Fox in North America would out accelerate one. Not to mention the 99+ Mustang GT, the Mach, the Cobras, F-bodies.
The '03/'04 Cobra runs 12's out of the box. On STREET RUBBER. Even the LS1 powered F-bodies ran bottom 13's. Is a 15 second car going to hang with EITHER of those cars? Not a chance.
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Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: rszappa1
Sure they will....
They will, and with ease. Stock 5.7 Hemi Chargers aren't particularly quick outside of law enforcement circles.
You don't drag race much obviously. A 15 second car is a slug.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: rszappa1
Sure they will....
They will, and with ease. Stock 5.7 Hemi Chargers aren't particularly quick outside of law enforcement circles.
You don't drag race much obviously. A 15 second car is a slug.
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Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Every SC Hwy Patrol Charger I've ever seen has been a Hemi.
As I said, around here. I'm in Canada. I've yet to see a single "HEMI" powered one. Not saying we don't have them, but I've never seen one.
Every SC Hwy Patrol Charger I've ever seen has been a Hemi.
As I said, around here. I'm in Canada. I've yet to see a single "HEMI" powered one. Not saying we don't have them, but I've never seen one.
According to Motor Trend the charger does a 14.2 at 99.4 mph... and by the way I was talking about that challenger that would handle the mustangs...
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Originally Posted By: rszappa1
According to Motor Trend the charger does a 14.2 at 99.4 mph... and by the way I was talking about that challenger that would handle the mustangs...
I was citing the information that I got on what it ran, which is probably on street tires. Different magazines will get different times. For example, Muscle Mustangs was able to get 12.26 out of an '03 Cobra on the stock rubber.....
The Challenger with the 6.1L runs low 13's. It would hang with a stock F-body or Mach and get raped by an '03/'04 Cobra or a Shelby. I'm talking stock here. There are a LOT of non-stock ones rolling around.......
Most of the Mustang guys I know personally have cars that run mid 10's to bottom 11's at well over 120Mph. Drag racing isn't a sport about going slow.....
According to Motor Trend the charger does a 14.2 at 99.4 mph... and by the way I was talking about that challenger that would handle the mustangs...
I was citing the information that I got on what it ran, which is probably on street tires. Different magazines will get different times. For example, Muscle Mustangs was able to get 12.26 out of an '03 Cobra on the stock rubber.....
The Challenger with the 6.1L runs low 13's. It would hang with a stock F-body or Mach and get raped by an '03/'04 Cobra or a Shelby. I'm talking stock here. There are a LOT of non-stock ones rolling around.......
Most of the Mustang guys I know personally have cars that run mid 10's to bottom 11's at well over 120Mph. Drag racing isn't a sport about going slow.....
We are talkin street cars not hopt up... Now an srt8 challenter super stock will run in the high 8ts.... but that is not showroom stock.. I am talking about a stock SRT8 Challenger with the 425 HP Hemi....
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Originally Posted By: rszappa1
We are talkin street cars not hopt up... Now an srt8 challenter super stock will run in the high 8ts.... but that is not showroom stock.. I am talking about a stock SRT8 Challenger with the 425 HP Hemi....
I'm talking street cars too. There's an entire class dedicated to it. You need to take a look at some of the guys signatures on the Corral. These are daily driven cars.......
Mustangs have their own drag racing league. This is a HUGE group of people you are generalizing about here....
A good friend of mine has a daily driven 525RWHP '92 coupe that will run mid 10's.........
Another friend of mine had an '03 Cobra with a set of twins on it. Daily driven. Made 750RWHP on pump gas. That was daily-driven tune. Made 850RWHP on higher-octane gas.
It ran the 1/4 at over 140Mph..........
We are talkin street cars not hopt up... Now an srt8 challenter super stock will run in the high 8ts.... but that is not showroom stock.. I am talking about a stock SRT8 Challenger with the 425 HP Hemi....
I'm talking street cars too. There's an entire class dedicated to it. You need to take a look at some of the guys signatures on the Corral. These are daily driven cars.......
Mustangs have their own drag racing league. This is a HUGE group of people you are generalizing about here....
A good friend of mine has a daily driven 525RWHP '92 coupe that will run mid 10's.........
Another friend of mine had an '03 Cobra with a set of twins on it. Daily driven. Made 750RWHP on pump gas. That was daily-driven tune. Made 850RWHP on higher-octane gas.
It ran the 1/4 at over 140Mph..........
Looks like the Challenger won....
The rebirth of the American muscle car is about a lot more than retro. It's about pride. It's about recalling a time when Americans looked down the road to the future with confidence, and they wanted a great big V8 engine to get them there as soon as possible.
It's no wonder the 2008 Ford Mustang Bullitt has our respect. It's the best version yet of the 2005 Ford Mustang, the car that set Detroit on fire again with enthusiasm for good old American muscle. Maybe the fuel-guzzling muscle car won't save Detroit from the challenge to build cars that people need, but it's surely restored the domestic car industry's confidence in its ability to do so. And it's shown that Americans can build cars that are utterly unlike anything you'll find in Stuttgart, Shanghai, Tokyo, Kuala Lumpur or any of those other places that economists think they're so clever to know about.
Now that the 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8 is here, Chrysler is cracking the seal on its own Mopar-branded can of muscle-car whoop-[censored] to show that it understands what's at stake in the muscle-car sweepstakes. The Bullitt and the Challenger are the two coolest cars in America, and it's only natural to bring them together.
Mustang Mania
The Mustang, with more than 9 million examples sold since its introduction in mid-1964, is as synonymous with American culture as Marlboro Reds, the White Stripes from Detroit and blue jeans from Levi. It's no wonder Ford has been doing little else but building specialty models of the Mustang over the last two years.
The latest addition to the Mustang lineup owes its existence to the role a Mustang GT 390 played opposite Steve McQueen in the 1968 cult classic Bullitt. Minor changes to the inherent goodness of the Mustang GT Premium model ($28,215) have netted a noticeable improvement. Stripping off the pony badges and gimmicky rear wing help, as do the repro Euro-style wheels and the paint in Dark Highland Green. (Black is also available.)
Of course, we really appreciate the Bullitt's new cold-air intake system, free-flowing exhaust with an H-pipe and recalibrated engine electronics. A new, more sophisticated ignition system allows the Bullitt to run on either regular or premium fuel (we used 91 octane exclusively during this test), and the V8's redline has been extended to 6,500 rpm. Top speed is 151 mph. The 3,517-pound Bullitt's engine setup nets 315 horsepower at 6,000 rpm and 325 pound-feet of torque at 4,250 rpm, so each horsepower has 11.2 pounds to carry around.
It shows, as the Bullitt's throttle response is quicker than that of a stock GT, while the sound of the Bullitt's dual exhaust, tuned to replicate the movie car's unfettered glass-pack rumble, is appropriately lustworthy. The Tremec five-speed manual transmission is matched with a snappier 3.73:1 final-drive ratio. New springs and shocks, along with a front strut tower brace, are tuned to deliver crisper handling, working through BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDWS tires. Finally the Bullitt's front brake pads are more aggressive, adding feel and reducing fade.
You could transform your stock Mustang GT into a Bullitt with a parts list, a spray booth, a clever ECU code cracker and a few weeks of down time, but for the Bullitt's $3,130 option cost, why not buy one with a Ford factory warranty and call it a day?
Enter the Challenger
Even if your dad were a television repair man with the ultimate set of tools, you could not cobble together a 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8 from the Dodge Charger SRT8 on which it is based. For one thing, you'd have to slice 4 inches out of the wheelbase with a plasma cutter, then hammer out new body panels and get to work fashioning everything from a new driveshaft and a unique grille to a complete interior and those trademark taillights.
The Mopar guys have always been a little different, a little off center. Their cars were always a little larger, and they came in flamboyant colors that defined the muscle-car era — Go Mango, Plum Crazy, Sassy Grass, Sub Lime, Top Banana and Tor Red. But what made Mopar truly unique was the Hemi, the V8 engine of the legendary Ramchargers.
Now the Hemi is back, and the 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8's Hemi V8 displaces not the celebrated 426 cubic inches of the past, but 370 instead, or 6.1 liters. What these two Hemi V8s from different eras share is a prodigious output of 425 hp, once under-reported but now SAE certified.
Exclusive to SRT8-badged products from the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 to the Chrysler 300 SRT8, every Hemi 6.1 makes the same 425 hp at 6,200 rpm and 420 lb-ft of torque at 4,800 rpm. In our 4,154-pound Challenger SRT8, this means it hustles just 9.8 pounds of metal, plastic and glass with each stallion. No tree-hugging multi-displacement technology here; instead a gas-guzzler tax of $2,100.
Unfortunately every 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8 comes with Chrysler's five-speed automatic transmission with a tall 3.06:1 final-drive ratio. And instead of a mechanical limited-slip differential (LSD), the Challenger makes due with a brake-lock differential (BLD), a kind of electronic traction control that uses the brakes to control wheelspin and direct torque to the tire with the most grip. A manual transmission and LSD are on the Challenger's to-do list, but you'll have to wait until next year. (More about this later.)
Muscle-Car Time Slips
Though the Mustang Bullitt is 637 pounds lighter than the Challenger and has shorter overall gearing, the mighty Challenger ruled on the drag strip. The Hemi simply pulled its weight, even in this 4,154-pound wrapper.
The Bullitt sprinted to 60 mph in 5.4 seconds (5.1 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip), while the Challenger made the trip in 5.1 seconds (4.8 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip). The quarter-mile arrived in 13.2 seconds at 107.5 mph. The Challenger is substantially quicker to 60 mph than the almost identical Charger SRT8, and we think the Challenger's optional Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires make the difference.
It took only a couple of runs to get the most from the Mustang. Once you coordinate the clutch and throttle to get just the right amount of wheelspin, the Bullitt delivers times that are so easily repeatable that we'd recommend it as an ideal bracket racer. Five consecutive quarter-mile times were separated by just 0.09 second, and we ultimately recorded 13.7 seconds at 103.0 mph.
Easier still, however, was getting the best run out of the Challenger. Simply disabling traction control and dropping a size-43 Piloti on the go pedal put the Bullitt in the Challenger's rearview mirror. As far as drag races go, a half-second and 4.5-mph margin of victory is pretty decisive.
As far as automatic transmissions go, we have to admit the W5A580 five-speed in the Challenger SRT8 is a pretty good one. Intelligent and aggressively programmed, it usually goes about its business unobtrusively, but it'll pop off an upshift crisply with a momentary pause between gears that sounds something like [censored] belching fire through a stainless-steel esophagus. Torque converter lockup is so aggressive that it's almost necessary to lean your melon against the headrest when you upshift at full throttle.
Nudging the leather-wrapped shifter into manual mode actually prevents the engine from running into its rev limiter at 6,400 rpm, the transmission shifts up a gear on its own. We even caught it short-shifting from 1st to 2nd gear to quell wheelspin in certain conditions. (SRT says its customers requested this feature, but we're skeptical.) After the Challenger is driven hard for awhile, the transmission program learns your behavior and even the downshifts get pretty aggressive.
Muscling It
Even after five stops from 60 mph, the Brembo-equipped Challenger was still improving its braking performance, with the best stop at 115 feet. Feel remained excellent, fade was never an issue and each stop was straight and shudder-free. Conversely, the Bullitt's first stop was its best at 126 feet, and then the distance grew another 6 feet or so thereafter. Though the feel of the brake pedal is improved from a stock Mustang GT and the fade resistance is good, we'd like more bite from the brake pads.
The size of the Challenger proved to be a challenge in the slalom, but finally the immense grip afforded by the Challenger's optional Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires and the quick steering transitions afforded by the short-travel suspension helped produce a 66.2-mph pass. A remarkable feat, really, from a 2-ton automobile. The Dodge's skid-pad performance was similarly incongruous, with a 0.86g effort.
The only real complaint from the Challenger's driver seat came from our experience in the slalom, where the combination of the slow (16.1:1) steering ratio, a large steering wheel, and so much size and weight made us feel like we were tacking a small boat upwind.
The 3,519-pound Mustang felt alert and nimble in comparison. Quick turn-in characteristics made the car seem far better balanced than you might guess from its weight distribution of 54 percent front/46 percent rear (which it shares with the Challenger). In the end, however, the Bullitt's old-school solid rear axle limited its slalom speed because slight pavement irregularities upset the rear of the car long before the front goes off line, ultimately making the Bullitt more of a handful than the Challenger.
Yet by timing the slide from the rear just right, the Mustang's limited-slip differential hooked up the car through the last slalom gate and we shot across the finish line at 66.1 mph. Around the skid pad, the Bullitt's upgraded suspension paid off with good balance up to the point of mild understeer on the way to an impressive 0.87g orbit.
Driving in the Real World
While the Challenger held the upper hand in our track testing, technically outscoring the Bullitt in five of the six instrumented categories, it was on the open road and in average daily use where the Dodge really proved to be the more capable, more modern car.
On the highway, the Challenger's ride is characterized by a sense of big, heavy wheels, but we've got to admit that as skeptical as we were of 20-inch forged-aluminum wheels wrapped by 45-series tires, the Challenger's ride quality is fantastic. There's some tire thump over sharp seams in the pavement, but the impacts are enveloped quickly by the sophisticated suspension: double wishbones in front and a multilink arrangement in the rear. There's no secondary or sympathetic shudder or vibration transmitted to the chassis or passengers. We wouldn't have believed it if we hadn't experienced it ourselves.
On the other end of the evolutionary suspension timeline, the Bullitt's highway manners remind us why live-axle rear suspensions are relics found in pickup trucks. If the Mustang isn't required to tow anything, why does it need a live axle? So omnipresent were the motions of the rear suspension on anything but freshly steamrolled asphalt that it was [censored] near impossible to read the already inscrutable speedometer. We'd hate to guess what would happen if the Bullitt's 18-inch wheels were replaced with the Challenger's 20s.
Will the Real Car Please Step Forward?
The old-versus-new question tips the comparison of interiors in the Challenger's favor as well.
Unlike the Bullitt's 2+2 setup, there are four truly inhabitable seats in the Challenger. The Bullitt's rear accommodations don't offer hostages an armrest, cupholders, a power point or even an air vent. The Challenger does, and gives passengers 2 inches more legroom and 3 inches more headroom. The Challenger's front seats (exclusive to the SRT8) are like racing seats compared to the Bullitt's retro-to-a-fault front buckets.
All the switches, dials, buttons and stalks in the Challenger feel substantial and operate so cleanly it's as if they have been oiled. There are audio, trip computer, vehicle status and performance-related telemetry buttons on the Challenger's steering wheel, while the Bullitt has only cruise control. This Bullitt has an optional DVD-based touchscreen navigation and audio system, but it's so poorly laid out and encumbered with safety lock-outs that we'd rather keep its $2 grand cost.
Finally, the Challenger offers as standard convenience equipment like an MP3 adapter, Sirius Satellite Radio and HID headlamps. All are optional on the Mustang.
Muscle Without Retro
So is the $40,145 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8 really some $5,440 better than the $34,705 2008 Ford Mustang Bullitt? Yes, and when we crunched all the numbers into our comparison test formula, factoring performance, features, price, evaluation scores and personal/recommended choices, the Challenger won by three points.
This might not be a win decisive enough for some budget conscious muscle-car buyers, especially if we're accurately predicting at least a $5,000 dealer markup for the first year's allotment of Challenger SRT8s. After all, if you have $45,000-$50,000, you could consider the 500-hp Shelby GT500, which is quicker than the Bullitt or the Challenger SRT8. Then again, even the Shelby has a live axle and the same interior as a common Mustang.
Here's the bottom line. Be patient. Let the guys who gotta have 'em go ahead and
The rebirth of the American muscle car is about a lot more than retro. It's about pride. It's about recalling a time when Americans looked down the road to the future with confidence, and they wanted a great big V8 engine to get them there as soon as possible.
It's no wonder the 2008 Ford Mustang Bullitt has our respect. It's the best version yet of the 2005 Ford Mustang, the car that set Detroit on fire again with enthusiasm for good old American muscle. Maybe the fuel-guzzling muscle car won't save Detroit from the challenge to build cars that people need, but it's surely restored the domestic car industry's confidence in its ability to do so. And it's shown that Americans can build cars that are utterly unlike anything you'll find in Stuttgart, Shanghai, Tokyo, Kuala Lumpur or any of those other places that economists think they're so clever to know about.
Now that the 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8 is here, Chrysler is cracking the seal on its own Mopar-branded can of muscle-car whoop-[censored] to show that it understands what's at stake in the muscle-car sweepstakes. The Bullitt and the Challenger are the two coolest cars in America, and it's only natural to bring them together.
Mustang Mania
The Mustang, with more than 9 million examples sold since its introduction in mid-1964, is as synonymous with American culture as Marlboro Reds, the White Stripes from Detroit and blue jeans from Levi. It's no wonder Ford has been doing little else but building specialty models of the Mustang over the last two years.
The latest addition to the Mustang lineup owes its existence to the role a Mustang GT 390 played opposite Steve McQueen in the 1968 cult classic Bullitt. Minor changes to the inherent goodness of the Mustang GT Premium model ($28,215) have netted a noticeable improvement. Stripping off the pony badges and gimmicky rear wing help, as do the repro Euro-style wheels and the paint in Dark Highland Green. (Black is also available.)
Of course, we really appreciate the Bullitt's new cold-air intake system, free-flowing exhaust with an H-pipe and recalibrated engine electronics. A new, more sophisticated ignition system allows the Bullitt to run on either regular or premium fuel (we used 91 octane exclusively during this test), and the V8's redline has been extended to 6,500 rpm. Top speed is 151 mph. The 3,517-pound Bullitt's engine setup nets 315 horsepower at 6,000 rpm and 325 pound-feet of torque at 4,250 rpm, so each horsepower has 11.2 pounds to carry around.
It shows, as the Bullitt's throttle response is quicker than that of a stock GT, while the sound of the Bullitt's dual exhaust, tuned to replicate the movie car's unfettered glass-pack rumble, is appropriately lustworthy. The Tremec five-speed manual transmission is matched with a snappier 3.73:1 final-drive ratio. New springs and shocks, along with a front strut tower brace, are tuned to deliver crisper handling, working through BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDWS tires. Finally the Bullitt's front brake pads are more aggressive, adding feel and reducing fade.
You could transform your stock Mustang GT into a Bullitt with a parts list, a spray booth, a clever ECU code cracker and a few weeks of down time, but for the Bullitt's $3,130 option cost, why not buy one with a Ford factory warranty and call it a day?
Enter the Challenger
Even if your dad were a television repair man with the ultimate set of tools, you could not cobble together a 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8 from the Dodge Charger SRT8 on which it is based. For one thing, you'd have to slice 4 inches out of the wheelbase with a plasma cutter, then hammer out new body panels and get to work fashioning everything from a new driveshaft and a unique grille to a complete interior and those trademark taillights.
The Mopar guys have always been a little different, a little off center. Their cars were always a little larger, and they came in flamboyant colors that defined the muscle-car era — Go Mango, Plum Crazy, Sassy Grass, Sub Lime, Top Banana and Tor Red. But what made Mopar truly unique was the Hemi, the V8 engine of the legendary Ramchargers.
Now the Hemi is back, and the 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8's Hemi V8 displaces not the celebrated 426 cubic inches of the past, but 370 instead, or 6.1 liters. What these two Hemi V8s from different eras share is a prodigious output of 425 hp, once under-reported but now SAE certified.
Exclusive to SRT8-badged products from the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 to the Chrysler 300 SRT8, every Hemi 6.1 makes the same 425 hp at 6,200 rpm and 420 lb-ft of torque at 4,800 rpm. In our 4,154-pound Challenger SRT8, this means it hustles just 9.8 pounds of metal, plastic and glass with each stallion. No tree-hugging multi-displacement technology here; instead a gas-guzzler tax of $2,100.
Unfortunately every 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8 comes with Chrysler's five-speed automatic transmission with a tall 3.06:1 final-drive ratio. And instead of a mechanical limited-slip differential (LSD), the Challenger makes due with a brake-lock differential (BLD), a kind of electronic traction control that uses the brakes to control wheelspin and direct torque to the tire with the most grip. A manual transmission and LSD are on the Challenger's to-do list, but you'll have to wait until next year. (More about this later.)
Muscle-Car Time Slips
Though the Mustang Bullitt is 637 pounds lighter than the Challenger and has shorter overall gearing, the mighty Challenger ruled on the drag strip. The Hemi simply pulled its weight, even in this 4,154-pound wrapper.
The Bullitt sprinted to 60 mph in 5.4 seconds (5.1 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip), while the Challenger made the trip in 5.1 seconds (4.8 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip). The quarter-mile arrived in 13.2 seconds at 107.5 mph. The Challenger is substantially quicker to 60 mph than the almost identical Charger SRT8, and we think the Challenger's optional Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires make the difference.
It took only a couple of runs to get the most from the Mustang. Once you coordinate the clutch and throttle to get just the right amount of wheelspin, the Bullitt delivers times that are so easily repeatable that we'd recommend it as an ideal bracket racer. Five consecutive quarter-mile times were separated by just 0.09 second, and we ultimately recorded 13.7 seconds at 103.0 mph.
Easier still, however, was getting the best run out of the Challenger. Simply disabling traction control and dropping a size-43 Piloti on the go pedal put the Bullitt in the Challenger's rearview mirror. As far as drag races go, a half-second and 4.5-mph margin of victory is pretty decisive.
As far as automatic transmissions go, we have to admit the W5A580 five-speed in the Challenger SRT8 is a pretty good one. Intelligent and aggressively programmed, it usually goes about its business unobtrusively, but it'll pop off an upshift crisply with a momentary pause between gears that sounds something like [censored] belching fire through a stainless-steel esophagus. Torque converter lockup is so aggressive that it's almost necessary to lean your melon against the headrest when you upshift at full throttle.
Nudging the leather-wrapped shifter into manual mode actually prevents the engine from running into its rev limiter at 6,400 rpm, the transmission shifts up a gear on its own. We even caught it short-shifting from 1st to 2nd gear to quell wheelspin in certain conditions. (SRT says its customers requested this feature, but we're skeptical.) After the Challenger is driven hard for awhile, the transmission program learns your behavior and even the downshifts get pretty aggressive.
Muscling It
Even after five stops from 60 mph, the Brembo-equipped Challenger was still improving its braking performance, with the best stop at 115 feet. Feel remained excellent, fade was never an issue and each stop was straight and shudder-free. Conversely, the Bullitt's first stop was its best at 126 feet, and then the distance grew another 6 feet or so thereafter. Though the feel of the brake pedal is improved from a stock Mustang GT and the fade resistance is good, we'd like more bite from the brake pads.
The size of the Challenger proved to be a challenge in the slalom, but finally the immense grip afforded by the Challenger's optional Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires and the quick steering transitions afforded by the short-travel suspension helped produce a 66.2-mph pass. A remarkable feat, really, from a 2-ton automobile. The Dodge's skid-pad performance was similarly incongruous, with a 0.86g effort.
The only real complaint from the Challenger's driver seat came from our experience in the slalom, where the combination of the slow (16.1:1) steering ratio, a large steering wheel, and so much size and weight made us feel like we were tacking a small boat upwind.
The 3,519-pound Mustang felt alert and nimble in comparison. Quick turn-in characteristics made the car seem far better balanced than you might guess from its weight distribution of 54 percent front/46 percent rear (which it shares with the Challenger). In the end, however, the Bullitt's old-school solid rear axle limited its slalom speed because slight pavement irregularities upset the rear of the car long before the front goes off line, ultimately making the Bullitt more of a handful than the Challenger.
Yet by timing the slide from the rear just right, the Mustang's limited-slip differential hooked up the car through the last slalom gate and we shot across the finish line at 66.1 mph. Around the skid pad, the Bullitt's upgraded suspension paid off with good balance up to the point of mild understeer on the way to an impressive 0.87g orbit.
Driving in the Real World
While the Challenger held the upper hand in our track testing, technically outscoring the Bullitt in five of the six instrumented categories, it was on the open road and in average daily use where the Dodge really proved to be the more capable, more modern car.
On the highway, the Challenger's ride is characterized by a sense of big, heavy wheels, but we've got to admit that as skeptical as we were of 20-inch forged-aluminum wheels wrapped by 45-series tires, the Challenger's ride quality is fantastic. There's some tire thump over sharp seams in the pavement, but the impacts are enveloped quickly by the sophisticated suspension: double wishbones in front and a multilink arrangement in the rear. There's no secondary or sympathetic shudder or vibration transmitted to the chassis or passengers. We wouldn't have believed it if we hadn't experienced it ourselves.
On the other end of the evolutionary suspension timeline, the Bullitt's highway manners remind us why live-axle rear suspensions are relics found in pickup trucks. If the Mustang isn't required to tow anything, why does it need a live axle? So omnipresent were the motions of the rear suspension on anything but freshly steamrolled asphalt that it was [censored] near impossible to read the already inscrutable speedometer. We'd hate to guess what would happen if the Bullitt's 18-inch wheels were replaced with the Challenger's 20s.
Will the Real Car Please Step Forward?
The old-versus-new question tips the comparison of interiors in the Challenger's favor as well.
Unlike the Bullitt's 2+2 setup, there are four truly inhabitable seats in the Challenger. The Bullitt's rear accommodations don't offer hostages an armrest, cupholders, a power point or even an air vent. The Challenger does, and gives passengers 2 inches more legroom and 3 inches more headroom. The Challenger's front seats (exclusive to the SRT8) are like racing seats compared to the Bullitt's retro-to-a-fault front buckets.
All the switches, dials, buttons and stalks in the Challenger feel substantial and operate so cleanly it's as if they have been oiled. There are audio, trip computer, vehicle status and performance-related telemetry buttons on the Challenger's steering wheel, while the Bullitt has only cruise control. This Bullitt has an optional DVD-based touchscreen navigation and audio system, but it's so poorly laid out and encumbered with safety lock-outs that we'd rather keep its $2 grand cost.
Finally, the Challenger offers as standard convenience equipment like an MP3 adapter, Sirius Satellite Radio and HID headlamps. All are optional on the Mustang.
Muscle Without Retro
So is the $40,145 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8 really some $5,440 better than the $34,705 2008 Ford Mustang Bullitt? Yes, and when we crunched all the numbers into our comparison test formula, factoring performance, features, price, evaluation scores and personal/recommended choices, the Challenger won by three points.
This might not be a win decisive enough for some budget conscious muscle-car buyers, especially if we're accurately predicting at least a $5,000 dealer markup for the first year's allotment of Challenger SRT8s. After all, if you have $45,000-$50,000, you could consider the 500-hp Shelby GT500, which is quicker than the Bullitt or the Challenger SRT8. Then again, even the Shelby has a live axle and the same interior as a common Mustang.
Here's the bottom line. Be patient. Let the guys who gotta have 'em go ahead and
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yeah, that's why they went bankrupt and were bought by FIAT......
Can you provide "facts" outside of simply copying and pasting magazine articles?
That car will NEVER have the following the Mustang does. Regardless of what some magazine buffoon drums up and parades on paper.
The sales numbers speak for themselves:
Dodge Challenger 2009 Sales:
* September - 1,778
* August - 1,132
* July - 886
* June - 1,368
* May - 2,695
* April - 2,619
* March - 2,359
* February - 3,283
* January - 2,717
Year to date: 18,837 units
Ford Mustang 2009 sales:
* September - 4,917
* August - 6,289
* July - 6,686
* June - 7,632
* May - 8,812
* April - 7,699
* March - 3,711
* February - 2,990
* January - 2,944
Year to date: 51,680 units
Yeah, those sales are REAL close..........
I'm not sure what you think the Challenger won, but it sure wasn't customers.
Can you provide "facts" outside of simply copying and pasting magazine articles?
That car will NEVER have the following the Mustang does. Regardless of what some magazine buffoon drums up and parades on paper.
The sales numbers speak for themselves:
Dodge Challenger 2009 Sales:
* September - 1,778
* August - 1,132
* July - 886
* June - 1,368
* May - 2,695
* April - 2,619
* March - 2,359
* February - 3,283
* January - 2,717
Year to date: 18,837 units
Ford Mustang 2009 sales:
* September - 4,917
* August - 6,289
* July - 6,686
* June - 7,632
* May - 8,812
* April - 7,699
* March - 3,711
* February - 2,990
* January - 2,944
Year to date: 51,680 units
Yeah, those sales are REAL close..........
I'm not sure what you think the Challenger won, but it sure wasn't customers.
The mustang is a 16 year old girls' car. JMO.
I really don't like either one, but the challenger looks better.
I really don't like either one, but the challenger looks better.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
The mustang is a 16 year old girls' car. JMO.
I really don't like either one, but the challenger looks better.
The Challenger does look fantastic, I agree completely. But the Mustang is still outselling it by a HUGE margin. Just like it did the F-Body.
The mustang is a 16 year old girls' car. JMO.
I really don't like either one, but the challenger looks better.
The Challenger does look fantastic, I agree completely. But the Mustang is still outselling it by a HUGE margin. Just like it did the F-Body.
Oh, no doubt about that.
Dont get me wrong I am not picking the one over the other.... I would not buy a Ford...GM or a Fiaslyer..... Ill stick with my HONDA....Now back in the late 60s and early 70s when I did drag race...1968 Dodge Charger and a 1973 plymouth roadRunner I was all MOPAR back then.....
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