drove a '96 Stang GT 5spd yesterday-WOW, slow!

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Originally Posted By: ls1mike

Ford guys get touchy when you mention LS1, because it made them hurt...for years. When MM and FF tested one bone stock and ran 12.89 in the heat guys still were like "Well..." My 01 Trapped 110 bone stock with temp tags and 151 miles on it. The WS6 and 98 Z28 trapped 108 bone stock.
All in good fun.


Do you blame us? LOL! The LS1 was what the Windsor would/should have been if Ford had updated it instead of foisting the small bore 1st gen Modular on us, which was in itself a compromise of the original 4" bore design that was resurrected as Hurricane more than a decade later (the big SOHC truck motor, the 6.2L). All because some bean counter wanted it to fit in a FWD application and it wouldn't with the original dimensions. So we got saddled with an engine with no aftermarket support, [censored] rods, asthmatic heads, turderiffic intake and couldn't make power on the cheap like the engine it replaced could. It was a boatload of suck.

Now mind you a properly warmed over 32V Modular could make some great power in the right hands, but that's not the engine the guys buying the GT's got. They got the extremely limited 2V engine. The holy grail was of course the Termi with its 1000+HP capable stock bottom-end and deep breathing heads. It was born for boost. But again, that's not your average Mustang, and with a 2 year production run and it STILL commanding a premium... well.

The pre-Coyote cars were IMHO some dark days for the Mustang. I wouldn't own one that wasn't a Termi, just not worth it. In fact the Termi was what I was cross-shopping with the M5. The M5 won due to simply being a better and more practical car. But I have a soft spot in my heart for the Terminator nonetheless, it was good strong competition for the last-gen F-body boys
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Originally Posted By: ls1mike


Ford guys get touchy when you mention LS1, because it made them hurt...for years. When MM and FF tested one bone stock and ran 12.89 in the heat guys still were like "Well..." My 01 Trapped 110 bone stock with temp tags and 151 miles on it. The WS6 and 98 Z28 trapped 108 bone stock.
All in good fun.


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yep.
In 1998, garden variety Z/28s could suddenly walk away from the hand-built SVT Cobras (to be fair 1997 LT4 SLP Camaros could too but there was only about 100 of those)
 
Originally Posted By: dwcopple
My gosh, how do you make these things faster???


PI head/cam/intake swap. Can be done for less than $500, results in 10.5:1 CR and about 65 HP. Throw in a set of decent aftermarket cams along with the PI heads/intake and you can see a 90+ HP improvement.

97-98 GT are actually a decent buy, since the piston dish volume with the smaller PI chambers results in decent compression versus the 99-04 motors and they aren't particularly desirable because of the poor performance stigma.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
But I have a soft spot in my heart for the Terminator nonetheless, it was good strong competition for the last-gen F-body boys
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The Mach 1s were better competition for the LS1 cars than the 03/04 Cobras though, simply because Mach1-SS is a driver's race while the Cobra dominated the LS1 stock for stock or mod for mod.
 
I think a '98 Mark VIII with 4:10's and a tune will be on my short list now. J-Mod the trans and call it good. Maybe a set of Borlas or Magnaflows. Maybe I'm dreaming...
 
Originally Posted By: dwcopple
I think a '98 Mark VIII with 4:10's and a tune will be on my short list now. J-Mod the trans and call it good. Maybe a set of Borlas or Magnaflows. Maybe I'm dreaming...


I hope so. I remember test driving a new one and it went into limp mode on the way back to the dealership. Good thing the salesman was with us or they probably would have thought we abused it or something.
 
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
But I have a soft spot in my heart for the Terminator nonetheless, it was good strong competition for the last-gen F-body boys
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The Mach 1s were better competition for the LS1 cars than the 03/04 Cobras though, simply because Mach1-SS is a driver's race while the Cobra dominated the LS1 stock for stock or mod for mod.


More fair competition for sure! I was just thinking with respect to the LS1 guys slapping in a cam and stuff.... The Termi guys just put on a smaller pulley
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: swirlparanoid
Originally Posted By: dwcopple
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Like I said, buy a nice clean LT1 or LS1 car.
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I am anti-"government motors" vehicles, sorry.


Well that was wayyy before the bailout. A ls1 vehicle is still a VERY respectable car. A cam and supporting mods and its at 400rwhp. Gotta watch the rear end though


It is very easy to get an LS1 to 400HP, that's for sure. Though I've seen mixed methods of "getting there". Many of the "400HP" "cam only" dyno runs are STD not SAE (not corrected) and heck I've even seen an engine dyno of a "stock" LS1 making 400HP. Of course that's with massive headers and no accessories and so SAE GROSS
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A stock 302HO (225HP SAE NET as per Ford) made 278HP on the Car Craft dyno measured the same way
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And made 400HP with a set of heads on it and the stock 1987 camshaft, LOL!!!

Consistency is key. I'm not knocking the LSx boys, that engine family can make tons of jam with very little effort. But when somebody makes a claim regarding power output it is nice to see a dyno graph with SAE on it and perhaps a timeslip with MPH to back it up
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Timeslip with D/A numbers only for me. I see too many wacky dyno runs, unless you know the dyno well and are familiar with its calibration. Even then they are rarely comparable from machine to machine.

I also suspect that since many are into bragging HP numbers that some dyno guys have found ways to sell them exactly what they want!

Plus a note for folks evaluating a car's performance by the seat of their pants, or 'butt dyno'. That's notoriously inaccurate and you can easily be fooled by a quiet and smooth powertrain in a tight car.
 
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The problem with that combo was the cam, I can tell you that right now. The FMS cams are horrible. A good custom grind or even a more modern Crane/Comp (MILD HR) or heck, even the stock HO cam would have made that combo much better mannered. I have an "E" cam in the Town Car and yeah, it comes on at about 3,000RPM and is an absolute turd below that, won't even spin the tires.


Bingo. Dad was looking at the B303 cam, but his buddies talked him into the E303 cam and there was very little torque off idle. It was a 5-speed, so you could still pop it and light them up. 3,000 rpm or higher and it was a real monster.
 
As dreadful as the build quality is (and is it ever dreadful!), the LS1 F-bodies are absolutely incredible performers.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
As dreadful as the build quality is (and is it ever dreadful!), the LS1 F-bodies are absolutely incredible performers.


How many have you owned for how long...
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For what you paid for them new and what they do they are very good. All three of mine never rattled and held up well to a very poor lifestyle of continuous beatings.
 
Never owned one, but know three people who have...they squeak, they rattle, the interiors scream "CHEAP!". The F-body is a better performer, but the Mustang is a far better VEHICLE.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Never owned one, but know three people who have...they squeak, they rattle, the interiors scream "CHEAP!". The F-body is a better performer, but the Mustang is a far better VEHICLE.

I have driven one since 1996, you couldn't be more wrong. Two LT1 cars with over 150,000 miles and 3 LS1 cars.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Never owned one, but know three people who have...they squeak, they rattle, the interiors scream "CHEAP!". The F-body is a better performer, but the Mustang is a far better VEHICLE.


They both have cheap interiors full of hard plastic. The Mustang is just more stylized. They weren't really supposed to be high end luxury cars. Performance for the dollar in a 2+2 package was the name of that game. Compare the interior to a similar year Prelude or C230 Kompressor. Yeah, the interior is nicer than the Pony cars. Smash the pedal on the right in the Z/28 or Cobra and the interior doesn't matter anymore. Even the supercharged Mercedes is behind you.

The F-bodies have a bed pillow size airbag with a small instrument cluster. Don't try to take a quick glance of the tach while turning. You won't see it.
 
I sold my 99 firebird to buy a mustang. A 92 cobra to be exact. Totalled the mustang in less than 10 hours though. Old story.
My firebird was a great car in a straight line. Had a 320hp 5.7 but the mustang handled better except the short wheelbase which was both blessing and curse.
I'd love to have the firebird back though. I'm a bit older and wiser.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Never owned one, but know three people who have...they squeak, they rattle, the interiors scream "CHEAP!". The F-body is a better performer, but the Mustang is a far better VEHICLE.


While both the 94-04 Mustang and 96-02 F-Body interiors are rather "cheesy" by today's standards, the Mustang without a doubt had the better coachwork. Some of the later Mustang interiors, (01-04) with upgraded materials and pillar trim (even though dash design didn't change) have aged surprisingly well.
 
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Never owned one, but know three people who have...they squeak, they rattle, the interiors scream "CHEAP!". The F-body is a better performer, but the Mustang is a far better VEHICLE.

I have driven one since 1996, you couldn't be more wrong. Two LT1 cars with over 150,000 miles and 3 LS1 cars.


I have personally either owned or bought to sell a few. All seemed just fine to me, a lot of great performance even with the odd problem. Weak rear ends at the strip but only with drag radials, real runners in Camaro or Firebird guise. Been 160 in one and it held on pretty good!
 
I don't think the F-bodies were ever lauded for their high quality interiors. But then, the Corvette of the era was plagued with poor interior quality as well. That's just the way they were back then. My brother has a '99 C5 and the interior build quality is mediocre at very best.

They're not poor performance values by any stretch of the imagination. You get what you pay for. In the case of the F-body, you paid relatively little for the amount of performance you got. That is bound to show up in other areas (and it did).
 
Originally Posted By: Mykl
I'll take a Mustang over an LS/T1 F-body for one reason...

spark plugs

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You're crazy. The 2v heads only have 3 threads holding in the plugs. Recipe for disaster. I'm talking from experience. The 3v 4.6 were fine though.
Even in my 99 silverado the rear plugs are a pain to do,so I use iridium tips for the longevity.
I do like the charger for ease of changing plugs. My mustangs are all pretty easy to get at as well.
 
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