Driving a stick -- interesting but highly obsolete
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Originally Posted By: rpn453
Originally Posted By: M1Accord
And I do agree that off-roading, specifically rock climbing, is much better with auto. A manual would be worn out very soon doing the tricks required.
This would be news to the guys I've known who like off-roading.
As I said, that depends on the KIND of offroading. Manuals do not live well with extended low-speed, rock-by-rock rock crawling. Well, specifically, CLUTCHES do not live well with extended rock crawling. And I'm not talking about bumping over rocky trails, I'm talking about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap2csNm_TII&feature=related
If you're just running over muddy hunting trails and back-roads with maybe a very occasional big rock, then yeah... I love my manual Jeep.
Originally Posted By: M1Accord
And I do agree that off-roading, specifically rock climbing, is much better with auto. A manual would be worn out very soon doing the tricks required.
This would be news to the guys I've known who like off-roading.
As I said, that depends on the KIND of offroading. Manuals do not live well with extended low-speed, rock-by-rock rock crawling. Well, specifically, CLUTCHES do not live well with extended rock crawling. And I'm not talking about bumping over rocky trails, I'm talking about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap2csNm_TII&feature=related
If you're just running over muddy hunting trails and back-roads with maybe a very occasional big rock, then yeah... I love my manual Jeep.
There are good implementations of the manual transmission and some not-so-good implementations.
If you've only driven one stick car so far, I'd suggest trying another one.
Some differences are:
Hydraulic vs. cable clutch
Cable vs. rod shifter linkage
Wide vs. close ratio gears
Tall vs. short gearing (final drive ratio)
Every one of these makes a noticeable difference.
I have an '88 Mustang GT. It's a stick and I don't like driving it in stop-and-go traffic. That MAY have something to do with the 2.73 final drive it has. I am about ready to go get a 3.55 final drive installed in it which should make it work better for stop-and-go traffic.
On the other hand, my '06 Saab 93, and the '95 Ford Contour V6 which it replaced (both stick), are both fine in stop-and-go traffic.
If you've only driven one stick car so far, I'd suggest trying another one.
Some differences are:
Hydraulic vs. cable clutch
Cable vs. rod shifter linkage
Wide vs. close ratio gears
Tall vs. short gearing (final drive ratio)
Every one of these makes a noticeable difference.
I have an '88 Mustang GT. It's a stick and I don't like driving it in stop-and-go traffic. That MAY have something to do with the 2.73 final drive it has. I am about ready to go get a 3.55 final drive installed in it which should make it work better for stop-and-go traffic.
On the other hand, my '06 Saab 93, and the '95 Ford Contour V6 which it replaced (both stick), are both fine in stop-and-go traffic.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I think he's talking about people who abuse automatics by trying to use them as though they're manuals (e.g. forcing gears, neutral drops, etc.).
There's nothing wrong with manually shifting an automatic. On vintage autos, holding a low gear and then releasing it to shift when you're ready (it WON'T upshift if *it* isn't ready) is harmless. Heck, that's why vintage muscle cars had "slapstick" shifters, and I do it in my R/T all the time. In a modern automatic- well, they won't really respond very fast unless they're already programmed for "quasi-manual" shifting ("Autostick" mode, for example).
But neutral drops- that's just plain STOOPID. That puts all the abuse on the overrunning clutch (in Fords and Mopars, Hydramatics had a different power flow sequence and I can't remmeber if they use the O/R clutch in drive/breakaway or not). When the O/R clutch fails violently, it usually shatters the whole transmission CASE! They say you can't eliminate stupidity, but dumping 12 quarts of ATF on the pavement and then learning that not only is your transmission dead, its completely un-rebuildable is a good life-lesson for people too pigheaded to get the point just from being told how the transmission works.
I think he's talking about people who abuse automatics by trying to use them as though they're manuals (e.g. forcing gears, neutral drops, etc.).
There's nothing wrong with manually shifting an automatic. On vintage autos, holding a low gear and then releasing it to shift when you're ready (it WON'T upshift if *it* isn't ready) is harmless. Heck, that's why vintage muscle cars had "slapstick" shifters, and I do it in my R/T all the time. In a modern automatic- well, they won't really respond very fast unless they're already programmed for "quasi-manual" shifting ("Autostick" mode, for example).
But neutral drops- that's just plain STOOPID. That puts all the abuse on the overrunning clutch (in Fords and Mopars, Hydramatics had a different power flow sequence and I can't remmeber if they use the O/R clutch in drive/breakaway or not). When the O/R clutch fails violently, it usually shatters the whole transmission CASE! They say you can't eliminate stupidity, but dumping 12 quarts of ATF on the pavement and then learning that not only is your transmission dead, its completely un-rebuildable is a good life-lesson for people too pigheaded to get the point just from being told how the transmission works.
Traffic and manuals really aren't fun. I recall when I went to Daytona for spring break (my younger years), I held my clutch in so much that the bottom of my shoe melted/burned a clutch pedal shape into it. I think I went about 2 miles in 2 hours on the strip.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
As I said, that depends on the KIND of offroading. Manuals do not live well with extended low-speed, rock-by-rock rock crawling. Well, specifically, CLUTCHES do not live well with extended rock crawling. And I'm not talking about bumping over rocky trails, I'm talking about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap2csNm_TII&feature=related
If you're just running over muddy hunting trails and back-roads with maybe a very occasional big rock, then yeah... I love my manual Jeep.
I should have left the rock-crawling section of the quote out, because I know nothing about specialized off-roading. I can see how an automatic would be advantageous in that situation.
However, I disagree with the assertion that the automatic is better for off-roading in every possible way. Having the direct connection between the wheels and engine so that you can more accurately feel how much the wheels are spinning and being able to more precisely modulate that can be an advantage in many situations, from slow mudding to drifting through a turn. For the milder off-roading that can be done with a vehicle that is also suitable for highway use and as a daily driver, I'd still want a manual transmission and a manual transfer case.
As I said, that depends on the KIND of offroading. Manuals do not live well with extended low-speed, rock-by-rock rock crawling. Well, specifically, CLUTCHES do not live well with extended rock crawling. And I'm not talking about bumping over rocky trails, I'm talking about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap2csNm_TII&feature=related
If you're just running over muddy hunting trails and back-roads with maybe a very occasional big rock, then yeah... I love my manual Jeep.
I should have left the rock-crawling section of the quote out, because I know nothing about specialized off-roading. I can see how an automatic would be advantageous in that situation.
However, I disagree with the assertion that the automatic is better for off-roading in every possible way. Having the direct connection between the wheels and engine so that you can more accurately feel how much the wheels are spinning and being able to more precisely modulate that can be an advantage in many situations, from slow mudding to drifting through a turn. For the milder off-roading that can be done with a vehicle that is also suitable for highway use and as a daily driver, I'd still want a manual transmission and a manual transfer case.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
You need to take out a car that is FUN to drive stick. My favourite is a 5.0L Mustang (87-93), but a Challenger, Camaro or new Mustang would be just dandy for you to try it out.
Nothing like railing gears while tapping the clutch with the engine roaring, both rear tires roasting, it is a LOT of fun
I didn't really enjoy driving fast cars until I was good at operating a manual transmission. It seemed silly to be driving a car that was so much better than me! It is a lot of fun once you no longer have to put any thought into it though.
You need to take out a car that is FUN to drive stick. My favourite is a 5.0L Mustang (87-93), but a Challenger, Camaro or new Mustang would be just dandy for you to try it out.
Nothing like railing gears while tapping the clutch with the engine roaring, both rear tires roasting, it is a LOT of fun
I didn't really enjoy driving fast cars until I was good at operating a manual transmission. It seemed silly to be driving a car that was so much better than me! It is a lot of fun once you no longer have to put any thought into it though.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: rpn453
I didn't really enjoy driving fast cars until I was good at operating a manual transmission. It seemed silly to be driving a car that was so much better than me! It is a lot of fun once you no longer have to put any thought into it though.
True enough. I've been driving various types of manual vehicles (tractors, 3-wheeler, motorcycle, trucks) since I was about 10. So getting in vehicle with some decent power, a direct connection to the tranny with the shifter and RWD just feels very "natural".
I didn't really enjoy driving fast cars until I was good at operating a manual transmission. It seemed silly to be driving a car that was so much better than me! It is a lot of fun once you no longer have to put any thought into it though.
True enough. I've been driving various types of manual vehicles (tractors, 3-wheeler, motorcycle, trucks) since I was about 10. So getting in vehicle with some decent power, a direct connection to the tranny with the shifter and RWD just feels very "natural".
Originally Posted By: JOD
As far as F1, it's pretty irrelevant to this discussion, but let's not pretend that people are using sequential automatics because they're "better". Fully-automatic transmissions, including CVT's are against the rules. If they weren't, most people familiar with the sport agree the landscape of transmissions would look a lot different.
Probably true, but it's hard for me to imagine leaving gear selection decisions to something other than the driver. An unexpected gear change could have bad results. I suppose it may be possible to set it up so that undesirable or unexpected shifts never occur, even in an abnormal situation involving driver error with unusual inputs, and to have different shift points depending on track position. Are automatic transmissions banned in all racing (with turns)? Are they common, or even used, in any race series? I'd be interested in finding out more about the use - experimental or otherwise - of automatic transmissions in F1 or any other race series, if you know of any sources. It doesn't seem like manually selecting shift points would be much of a hindrance to an F1 driver who only has to push a button to demand a shift, but I guess acceleration would be a little faster if the upshift could occur at a precise engine speed every time.
Good video on the Williams CVT. I can see how CVTs would be a benefit. It's sort of unfortunate that they don't allow the technology to progress naturally, but I also wouldn't want to listen to F1 cars with CVTs.
I found a brief article on the Williams CVT:
http://www.ret-monitor.com/articles/1104/transmission/
http://www.ret-monitor.com/articles/1187/formula-one-cvt-part-2/
As far as F1, it's pretty irrelevant to this discussion, but let's not pretend that people are using sequential automatics because they're "better". Fully-automatic transmissions, including CVT's are against the rules. If they weren't, most people familiar with the sport agree the landscape of transmissions would look a lot different.
Probably true, but it's hard for me to imagine leaving gear selection decisions to something other than the driver. An unexpected gear change could have bad results. I suppose it may be possible to set it up so that undesirable or unexpected shifts never occur, even in an abnormal situation involving driver error with unusual inputs, and to have different shift points depending on track position. Are automatic transmissions banned in all racing (with turns)? Are they common, or even used, in any race series? I'd be interested in finding out more about the use - experimental or otherwise - of automatic transmissions in F1 or any other race series, if you know of any sources. It doesn't seem like manually selecting shift points would be much of a hindrance to an F1 driver who only has to push a button to demand a shift, but I guess acceleration would be a little faster if the upshift could occur at a precise engine speed every time.
Good video on the Williams CVT. I can see how CVTs would be a benefit. It's sort of unfortunate that they don't allow the technology to progress naturally, but I also wouldn't want to listen to F1 cars with CVTs.
I found a brief article on the Williams CVT:
http://www.ret-monitor.com/articles/1104/transmission/
http://www.ret-monitor.com/articles/1187/formula-one-cvt-part-2/
Originally Posted By: rpn453
I also wouldn't want to listen to F1 cars with CVTs.
The sound of FI and IRL cars makes my skin crawl already- yuck. Sounds like ripping fabric. Even NASCAR doesn't sound very melodic anymore now that they've all got the mandated same-side exhaust pipes and rev them consistently to 9000 rpm. Give me a big-block v8, with 700 ft-lb of torque at 6500 RPM and dual exhausts with a dump on each side of the chassis any day.
I also wouldn't want to listen to F1 cars with CVTs.
The sound of FI and IRL cars makes my skin crawl already- yuck. Sounds like ripping fabric. Even NASCAR doesn't sound very melodic anymore now that they've all got the mandated same-side exhaust pipes and rev them consistently to 9000 rpm. Give me a big-block v8, with 700 ft-lb of torque at 6500 RPM and dual exhausts with a dump on each side of the chassis any day.
Originally Posted By: rpn453
It's sort of unfortunate that they don't allow the technology to progress naturally, but I also wouldn't want to listen to F1 cars with CVTs.
I'm right with you on both points.
I will simply add this. As cool as it would be to see what F1 engineers could do if the regulations were lifted, we must remind ourselves that at least two things would result without the regulations:
1. Most of the teams would drop out because a few (e.g. Mercedes, Ferrari) would simply out-spend them and produce vastly better cars.
2. The drivers would have to wear G suits, and would probably be in danger of blacking out in hard corners anyway...
It's sort of unfortunate that they don't allow the technology to progress naturally, but I also wouldn't want to listen to F1 cars with CVTs.
I'm right with you on both points.
I will simply add this. As cool as it would be to see what F1 engineers could do if the regulations were lifted, we must remind ourselves that at least two things would result without the regulations:
1. Most of the teams would drop out because a few (e.g. Mercedes, Ferrari) would simply out-spend them and produce vastly better cars.
2. The drivers would have to wear G suits, and would probably be in danger of blacking out in hard corners anyway...
In terms of mileage,a manual vehicle should get better mileage. An automatic is an extra hydraulic pump the engine has to run all the time. Automatics have come a long way since their introduction, but it's amazing that the archaic "stick shift" still beats them for economy. They average $1000 less to buy new(sticker price)and get a couple more MPG's over the life of the vehicle.
Repair costs generally are also lower if you keep a vehicle a long time and take a bit of time to LEARN how to drive a manual. These are just observations from somebody who built transmissions (auto and manual) for a long time.
Automatics are fine, I don't knock them or folks who choose them. I just don't find it to be a job or work to drive a manual.
Repair costs generally are also lower if you keep a vehicle a long time and take a bit of time to LEARN how to drive a manual. These are just observations from somebody who built transmissions (auto and manual) for a long time.
Automatics are fine, I don't knock them or folks who choose them. I just don't find it to be a job or work to drive a manual.
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
For starters, a manual transmission is generally simpler, cheaper, and much less costly to repair. In general, they last longer too. I'm not sure why you say an auto is "safer" than a manual. Manual trans. generally gets better gas mileage overall. A skilled driver can always have the car in the correct gear for the speed, load, acceleration, etc. There is less slip in the drivetrain, meaning more efficiency and better mileage. With a manual you can slip the clutch when accelerating on ice or pulling slowly out of deep snow, preventing wheel spin, etc. Modern autos are really good, but there are benefits to a manual.
or even toss it into second and glide right over that ice or snow, good tricks to know.
For starters, a manual transmission is generally simpler, cheaper, and much less costly to repair. In general, they last longer too. I'm not sure why you say an auto is "safer" than a manual. Manual trans. generally gets better gas mileage overall. A skilled driver can always have the car in the correct gear for the speed, load, acceleration, etc. There is less slip in the drivetrain, meaning more efficiency and better mileage. With a manual you can slip the clutch when accelerating on ice or pulling slowly out of deep snow, preventing wheel spin, etc. Modern autos are really good, but there are benefits to a manual.
or even toss it into second and glide right over that ice or snow, good tricks to know.
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Originally Posted By: grampi
but I have to say it's a royal PITA to drive in heavy traffic. I think this vehicle will be replaced with something that has an auto tranny...
That's a legitimate argument in favor of automatics. That's a very subjective one, but its why I favor choice: those who, for whatever reason (such as the one you gave) need or prefer an auto should be (as they are) entitled to have that choice.
Likewise, those of us preferring manuals, should be offered the same choice. This is one point in favor of older cars: manual transmissions are a little easier to find (although you have to go farther back than I can shop to find them here in numbers equal to automatics).
-Spyder
As far as finding used cars with manual trannies, it very much depends on the type of vehicle you're looking for. When I was looking to by a used Corolla, I bought the first one I found because I knew how rare Corollas are with sticks.
Originally Posted By: grampi
but I have to say it's a royal PITA to drive in heavy traffic. I think this vehicle will be replaced with something that has an auto tranny...
That's a legitimate argument in favor of automatics. That's a very subjective one, but its why I favor choice: those who, for whatever reason (such as the one you gave) need or prefer an auto should be (as they are) entitled to have that choice.
Likewise, those of us preferring manuals, should be offered the same choice. This is one point in favor of older cars: manual transmissions are a little easier to find (although you have to go farther back than I can shop to find them here in numbers equal to automatics).
-Spyder
As far as finding used cars with manual trannies, it very much depends on the type of vehicle you're looking for. When I was looking to by a used Corolla, I bought the first one I found because I knew how rare Corollas are with sticks.
Lot's interesting, and repeated viewpoints in this thread. Of course, this is an enthusiasts' forum. We like cars, so we have opinions, and a higher number of MT folks here than the North American population per capita, I'd wager.
To the OP:
1. once you actually really *learn* a stick and live with it for a while, 3 pedals is a no-brainer-- you don't even notice.
2. on technical terrain, mountain roads, slippery surfaces, steep up/down grades, the manual will very humbly let you know you have much more control via engine braking, or less wheel-spin runaway if the traction drops during acceleration.
3. growing up in the snow, manuals literally double the amount of driver control, regardless of plunking the shifter into L.
Some are more fun than others. Short-throw smooth shifter, like a miata or some civics, Yea! My older subaru legacy-- kinda notchy and slow... I had to learn to make it sing, but was also very good for clutchless shifting. Long stick on older F150-- I LOVED. Notchy 2nd gen miata, fun but a little harder clutchless.
If you REALLY want to drive the car, especially an underpowered car surrounded by jags, benzes, and M3's, heel-toe shifting through city traffic made a commute entertaining.
Yes, cycling injuries made the left knee a bit more aggravated with extended stop-n-go. Finally, a wrist injury pretty much made me kiss a MT goodbye. But from time-to-time, I'll jump back in one. It's like riding a bike. a minute to learn the clutch, and then it's FUN!!
AFA off-roading--- AT vs MT is a huge driver preference issue. Low range takes a huge stress of the clutch. 3 pedals requires more coordination. MT offers better descent control.
AFA sports driving, the right gear, and that MT allows you to quickly induce more or less steering by shifting the "weight" between front and rear. This can be kinda/sorta done in an auto, but not with precision or quick transitions.
So, as a full-time auto trans driver now... if someone told me I needed to make a technical drive through snow, racecourse, mud, or any other control-oriented path, and wrist pain wasn't an issue, I'd take a MT hands-down.
P.S.-- my brother travels the world as an ice climber and river rafter. It's his full-time gig. Due to longevity and parts sourcing, manuals are the norm in most other countries.
M
To the OP:
1. once you actually really *learn* a stick and live with it for a while, 3 pedals is a no-brainer-- you don't even notice.
2. on technical terrain, mountain roads, slippery surfaces, steep up/down grades, the manual will very humbly let you know you have much more control via engine braking, or less wheel-spin runaway if the traction drops during acceleration.
3. growing up in the snow, manuals literally double the amount of driver control, regardless of plunking the shifter into L.
Some are more fun than others. Short-throw smooth shifter, like a miata or some civics, Yea! My older subaru legacy-- kinda notchy and slow... I had to learn to make it sing, but was also very good for clutchless shifting. Long stick on older F150-- I LOVED. Notchy 2nd gen miata, fun but a little harder clutchless.
If you REALLY want to drive the car, especially an underpowered car surrounded by jags, benzes, and M3's, heel-toe shifting through city traffic made a commute entertaining.
Yes, cycling injuries made the left knee a bit more aggravated with extended stop-n-go. Finally, a wrist injury pretty much made me kiss a MT goodbye. But from time-to-time, I'll jump back in one. It's like riding a bike. a minute to learn the clutch, and then it's FUN!!
AFA off-roading--- AT vs MT is a huge driver preference issue. Low range takes a huge stress of the clutch. 3 pedals requires more coordination. MT offers better descent control.
AFA sports driving, the right gear, and that MT allows you to quickly induce more or less steering by shifting the "weight" between front and rear. This can be kinda/sorta done in an auto, but not with precision or quick transitions.
So, as a full-time auto trans driver now... if someone told me I needed to make a technical drive through snow, racecourse, mud, or any other control-oriented path, and wrist pain wasn't an issue, I'd take a MT hands-down.
P.S.-- my brother travels the world as an ice climber and river rafter. It's his full-time gig. Due to longevity and parts sourcing, manuals are the norm in most other countries.
M
Well said, meep.
Currently 75% of my fleet is stick, by choice. Well, mostly by choice, my Dad bought the Ranger and it was *his* choice.
I commute primarily in suburban traffic and am currently using the Dakota, with a heavy-duty clutch. I can't complain. When I was test-driving the Sonata the salesman was very proud of the sport-shift feature in the vehicle and my attitude was more like "I already have a manual, I don't need to play like I have one." But it's funny when I drive the Sonata, usually once per trip I reach for the shifter to get out of Park and before I move it I try to find a clutch pedal that isn't there.
And I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread yet or not, but 2 things a manual can do that an automatic can't:
1) be push-started (as far as I know)
2) if you're off-roading and can defeat the neutral switch, a manual can be left in gear and the starter used to start crawling over an obstacle. 2 very obscure advantages, I admit, but they are things that a manual can do, and can be extremely handy when needed.
Currently 75% of my fleet is stick, by choice. Well, mostly by choice, my Dad bought the Ranger and it was *his* choice.
I commute primarily in suburban traffic and am currently using the Dakota, with a heavy-duty clutch. I can't complain. When I was test-driving the Sonata the salesman was very proud of the sport-shift feature in the vehicle and my attitude was more like "I already have a manual, I don't need to play like I have one." But it's funny when I drive the Sonata, usually once per trip I reach for the shifter to get out of Park and before I move it I try to find a clutch pedal that isn't there.
And I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread yet or not, but 2 things a manual can do that an automatic can't:
1) be push-started (as far as I know)
2) if you're off-roading and can defeat the neutral switch, a manual can be left in gear and the starter used to start crawling over an obstacle. 2 very obscure advantages, I admit, but they are things that a manual can do, and can be extremely handy when needed.
Originally Posted By: opus1
Currently 75% of my fleet is stick, by choice.
100% of our fleet is stick (we have one car)
Currently 75% of my fleet is stick, by choice.
100% of our fleet is stick (we have one car)
A 13 speed Roadranger on a pre big cam Cummins is to be experienced.
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