I dont think it does.. It was a big seller until the price went sky high but its a good oil.. Problem is you can find just as good if not better cheaper.
Does Motorcraft Oil Meet Chrysler Specification?
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Why more and more car manufactures are having their own oil spec's ? Used to be only few European manufactures have their own oil spec's, and now Detroit big-3 each has their own spec's, API spec isn't good enough ?
Of all Japanese manufactures only Honda has an oil spec for turbo engine in RDX, that I know of. May be other oil spec's for high performance car such as Lexus LFA ?
Many drivers don't even know the recommended oil grade for their vehicles, now they need to read the fine print on the back to find spec XXXX for their engines.
No, in many instances the basic API approval isn't good enough, particularly in applications that are hard on oil. The Honda VCM engines are an example of that, so are the Toyota sludgers. Engines that were supposed to be fine on the basic API stuff but obviously weren't.
Also, Nissan has their own spec for the GT-R (Mobil 1 0w-40).
The API has been behind the times forever. That's why the big diesel manufacturers came up with their own specs. That's why ACEA exists! Doug Hillary has posted extensively on it in the past.
Of your examples 2 out of 3 are bad engine designs: Honda V6 engines with VCM and few Toyota sludgers. Bad designed engines are in need of a better than standard API spec's oil ? Or they can use standard API spec's oil(synthetic) with shorter OCI ?
Do you see the problem with an average driver on the road with various spec's oil ? If an owner of a Ford and Chrysler car that both cars need 5W20, that owner need to buy 2 different 5W20 brand to satisfy the warranty.
From my point of view and my experience, a good engine only need appropriated grade that passes API spec's at the time the engine was designed. Example, engine in 1994 LS400 ran with any 5-10W30 API SG or newer, after 370+k miles it still runs without a single problem.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Why more and more car manufactures are having their own oil spec's ? Used to be only few European manufactures have their own oil spec's, and now Detroit big-3 each has their own spec's, API spec isn't good enough ?
Of all Japanese manufactures only Honda has an oil spec for turbo engine in RDX, that I know of. May be other oil spec's for high performance car such as Lexus LFA ?
Many drivers don't even know the recommended oil grade for their vehicles, now they need to read the fine print on the back to find spec XXXX for their engines.
No, in many instances the basic API approval isn't good enough, particularly in applications that are hard on oil. The Honda VCM engines are an example of that, so are the Toyota sludgers. Engines that were supposed to be fine on the basic API stuff but obviously weren't.
Also, Nissan has their own spec for the GT-R (Mobil 1 0w-40).
The API has been behind the times forever. That's why the big diesel manufacturers came up with their own specs. That's why ACEA exists! Doug Hillary has posted extensively on it in the past.
Of your examples 2 out of 3 are bad engine designs: Honda V6 engines with VCM and few Toyota sludgers. Bad designed engines are in need of a better than standard API spec's oil ? Or they can use standard API spec's oil(synthetic) with shorter OCI ?
Do you see the problem with an average driver on the road with various spec's oil ? If an owner of a Ford and Chrysler car that both cars need 5W20, that owner need to buy 2 different 5W20 brand to satisfy the warranty.
From my point of view and my experience, a good engine only need appropriated grade that passes API spec's at the time the engine was designed. Example, engine in 1994 LS400 ran with any 5-10W30 API SG or newer, after 370+k miles it still runs without a single problem.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
If a Chrysler comes in where I work (ford dealer) and it's a 5w20 specd vehicle we use Motorcraft 5w20. I'm not sure what Chrysler stipulations are but Mc 5w20 is more than adequate for a mopar. Ford for example states Any oil meeting api specs and is sn approved it's fine for use. I doubt Chrysler is to much different than that.
The User's Guides for both my 2014 Ram and 2015 Challenger both state: "We recommend you use API Certified SAE 5W-20 Engine Oil, meeting the requirements of Chrysler Material Standard MS-6395 such as MOPAR, Pennzoil, and Shell Helix."
If a Chrysler comes in where I work (ford dealer) and it's a 5w20 specd vehicle we use Motorcraft 5w20. I'm not sure what Chrysler stipulations are but Mc 5w20 is more than adequate for a mopar. Ford for example states Any oil meeting api specs and is sn approved it's fine for use. I doubt Chrysler is to much different than that.
The User's Guides for both my 2014 Ram and 2015 Challenger both state: "We recommend you use API Certified SAE 5W-20 Engine Oil, meeting the requirements of Chrysler Material Standard MS-6395 such as MOPAR, Pennzoil, and Shell Helix."
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Of your examples 2 out of 3 are bad engine designs: Honda V6 engines with VCM and few Toyota sludgers. Bad designed engines are in need of a better than standard API spec's oil ? Or they can use standard API spec's oil(synthetic) with shorter OCI ?
They could likely have run the spec interval on a better than API spec oil. Had the manufacturer done the requisite testing, they would have found that out. Coming up with a spec that dictates the minimum level of performance acceptable for the engine is doing due diligence and indicates that proper testing has been done. In these two cases and probably many others, that testing was obviously not performed or performed in a manner that was not satisfactory.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Do you see the problem with an average driver on the road with various spec's oil ? If an owner of a Ford and Chrysler car that both cars need 5W20, that owner need to buy 2 different 5W20 brand to satisfy the warranty.
Many 5w-20's on the market meet both spec's so your point is somewhat moot. Motorcraft oil is sold for Ford cars, and most often by Ford. It would not carry a Chrysler approval, just like the Mopar oil doesn't carry Ford's approval. However, you can choose from a wide array of oils that satisfy the requirements of both. And in reality, the two testing protocols may in fact be very similar in what they require above and beyond the basic API SN certification in terms of performance from the product. I doubt there is any issue in using a product that meets either in place of the other.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
From my point of view and my experience, a good engine only need appropriated grade that passes API spec's at the time the engine was designed. Example, engine in 1994 LS400 ran with any 5-10W30 API SG or newer, after 370+k miles it still runs without a single problem.
And your point of view is what it is and you are welcome to it. I'm simply trying to explain the logic behind the manufacturer approval process. The API testing regiment historically has not been overly difficult. Combining things like high power density, extended drain intervals and forced induction can require more from a lubricant than what that spec delivers. In this case, it makes perfect sense for a manufacturer to develop and test their own procedure to evaluate lubricant performance and set the bar where it needs to be to keep the engine clean and healthy.
Of your examples 2 out of 3 are bad engine designs: Honda V6 engines with VCM and few Toyota sludgers. Bad designed engines are in need of a better than standard API spec's oil ? Or they can use standard API spec's oil(synthetic) with shorter OCI ?
They could likely have run the spec interval on a better than API spec oil. Had the manufacturer done the requisite testing, they would have found that out. Coming up with a spec that dictates the minimum level of performance acceptable for the engine is doing due diligence and indicates that proper testing has been done. In these two cases and probably many others, that testing was obviously not performed or performed in a manner that was not satisfactory.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Do you see the problem with an average driver on the road with various spec's oil ? If an owner of a Ford and Chrysler car that both cars need 5W20, that owner need to buy 2 different 5W20 brand to satisfy the warranty.
Many 5w-20's on the market meet both spec's so your point is somewhat moot. Motorcraft oil is sold for Ford cars, and most often by Ford. It would not carry a Chrysler approval, just like the Mopar oil doesn't carry Ford's approval. However, you can choose from a wide array of oils that satisfy the requirements of both. And in reality, the two testing protocols may in fact be very similar in what they require above and beyond the basic API SN certification in terms of performance from the product. I doubt there is any issue in using a product that meets either in place of the other.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
From my point of view and my experience, a good engine only need appropriated grade that passes API spec's at the time the engine was designed. Example, engine in 1994 LS400 ran with any 5-10W30 API SG or newer, after 370+k miles it still runs without a single problem.
And your point of view is what it is and you are welcome to it. I'm simply trying to explain the logic behind the manufacturer approval process. The API testing regiment historically has not been overly difficult. Combining things like high power density, extended drain intervals and forced induction can require more from a lubricant than what that spec delivers. In this case, it makes perfect sense for a manufacturer to develop and test their own procedure to evaluate lubricant performance and set the bar where it needs to be to keep the engine clean and healthy.
SilverSnake: In my opinion--->Use the MC 5W-20! Your Hemis will not know the difference and they will not have any issues...
I have used Mobil 1 0W-20 in my 2014 5.7L Hemi since 1K mile mark and guess what? It now has 7K miles on her and She is Perfect!
The Best Part--->This Drives other Hemi owners absolutely Nuts within the Ram Forums--->They Preach and Preach that U better run Pennzoil due to the spec and the extra moly to keep away the so called awful Hemi Tick!!!! Well I posted {1} time that I poured in a Mix of 5qts Mobil 1 0W-20 & 2qts Mobil 1 0W-40 and Holy #$%^! You would think the whole world was going to end!!! It was so freaking hilarious! The Drama Queens come out of the wood work...
Before I made the switch I asked my Service Mgr about using Mobil 1 0W-20. He was thrilled that I even cared enough about my new Ram to do my own oil changes let alone use a very quality proven oil like Mobil 1... He told me if there were issues they would really not have a proven way to test to see what oil was actually in the motor... He was more concerned about Viscosity... He told me to only use 0W-20 or 5W-20 or 5w30 if the other 2 were not available at the time of oil change...
I have used Mobil 1 0W-20 in my 2014 5.7L Hemi since 1K mile mark and guess what? It now has 7K miles on her and She is Perfect!
The Best Part--->This Drives other Hemi owners absolutely Nuts within the Ram Forums--->They Preach and Preach that U better run Pennzoil due to the spec and the extra moly to keep away the so called awful Hemi Tick!!!! Well I posted {1} time that I poured in a Mix of 5qts Mobil 1 0W-20 & 2qts Mobil 1 0W-40 and Holy #$%^! You would think the whole world was going to end!!! It was so freaking hilarious! The Drama Queens come out of the wood work...
Before I made the switch I asked my Service Mgr about using Mobil 1 0W-20. He was thrilled that I even cared enough about my new Ram to do my own oil changes let alone use a very quality proven oil like Mobil 1... He told me if there were issues they would really not have a proven way to test to see what oil was actually in the motor... He was more concerned about Viscosity... He told me to only use 0W-20 or 5W-20 or 5w30 if the other 2 were not available at the time of oil change...
Below!
I will say-->I would probably tend to stay with the spec if I owned a very high end sports car such as the GTR/LFA-->Due to these engines are very hard on the oil and shear like crazy...
But the Hemi has proven to be very easy on the oil and really any Top Name Brand oil as long as the Viscosity is within reason will protect all those moving parts within for many years, as long as U Have Good Routine Maintenance and Sensible Driving Habits...
But the Hemi has proven to be very easy on the oil and really any Top Name Brand oil as long as the Viscosity is within reason will protect all those moving parts within for many years, as long as U Have Good Routine Maintenance and Sensible Driving Habits...
Originally Posted By: -SyN-
SilverSnake: In my opinion--->Use the MC 5W-20! Your Hemis will not know the difference and they will not have any issues...
I have used Mobil 1 0W-20 in my 2014 5.7L Hemi since 1K mile mark and guess what? It now has 7K miles on her and She is Perfect!
The Best Part--->This Drives other Hemi owners absolutely Nuts within the Ram Forums--->They Preach and Preach that U better run Pennzoil due to the spec and the extra moly to keep away the so called awful Hemi Tick!!!! Well I posted {1} time that I poured in a Mix of 5qts Mobil 1 0W-20 & 2qts Mobil 1 0W-40 and Holy #$%^! You would think the whole world was going to end!!! It was so freaking hilarious! The Drama Queens come out of the wood work...
Before I made the switch I asked my Service Mgr about using Mobil 1 0W-20. He was thrilled that I even cared enough about my new Ram to do my own oil changes let alone use a very quality proven oil like Mobil 1... He told me if there were issues they would really not have a proven way to test to see what oil was actually in the motor... He was more concerned about Viscosity... He told me to only use 0W-20 or 5W-20 or 5w30 if the other 2 were not available at the time of oil change...
Nice to hear from another late model Hemi owner. Thanks for posting.
I agree that the Hemi's will most likely use the Motorcraft oil with absolutely no issues. However, I wanted to see if there was a chance it met the Chrysler spec.
As a point of interest, do you have the Hemi tick with your Ram? Neither of mine tick but I am getting some brief start up clatter with the Challenger. I plan to go with Pennzoil Ultra 5W-20 and a Premium Royal Purple filter to see if that makes any difference (once I get 1000 miles on the car).
SilverSnake: In my opinion--->Use the MC 5W-20! Your Hemis will not know the difference and they will not have any issues...
I have used Mobil 1 0W-20 in my 2014 5.7L Hemi since 1K mile mark and guess what? It now has 7K miles on her and She is Perfect!
The Best Part--->This Drives other Hemi owners absolutely Nuts within the Ram Forums--->They Preach and Preach that U better run Pennzoil due to the spec and the extra moly to keep away the so called awful Hemi Tick!!!! Well I posted {1} time that I poured in a Mix of 5qts Mobil 1 0W-20 & 2qts Mobil 1 0W-40 and Holy #$%^! You would think the whole world was going to end!!! It was so freaking hilarious! The Drama Queens come out of the wood work...
Before I made the switch I asked my Service Mgr about using Mobil 1 0W-20. He was thrilled that I even cared enough about my new Ram to do my own oil changes let alone use a very quality proven oil like Mobil 1... He told me if there were issues they would really not have a proven way to test to see what oil was actually in the motor... He was more concerned about Viscosity... He told me to only use 0W-20 or 5W-20 or 5w30 if the other 2 were not available at the time of oil change...
Nice to hear from another late model Hemi owner. Thanks for posting.
I agree that the Hemi's will most likely use the Motorcraft oil with absolutely no issues. However, I wanted to see if there was a chance it met the Chrysler spec.
As a point of interest, do you have the Hemi tick with your Ram? Neither of mine tick but I am getting some brief start up clatter with the Challenger. I plan to go with Pennzoil Ultra 5W-20 and a Premium Royal Purple filter to see if that makes any difference (once I get 1000 miles on the car).
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As of Today? No Tick which many have stated and reported as a lifter tick...
I have read where there has been reports of this happening because of engine design and lifter design based all around oil pressure and oil getting to these lifters especially the front drivers side... Reports are if the Oil psi is close to 47-50psi there is never an issue but when the oil psi drops below that this area is not getting supplied the right amount of oil.. It is not starving this area of oil but just not supplying enough.
I am not a mechanic so I really can't explain what is exactly happening in mechanical terms...
There has been a few Mopar mechanics post within the Hemi forums to not let the engine idle for long periods of time once the motor as well as the oil has reached operating temp... Thus the oil psi always drops... Mine will normally drop to 42-44psi at this point...
I have read where some owners have switched to a oil that carries a very High Moly Count-->Thus hoping to add that bit of extra lubrication Barrier! One owner posted his Tick quit after switching to Redline 5W-20...
To answer your question> No my 5.7L does not have the Lifter Tick as of today... I will also state I Do Not let my 5.7L idle for very long at all once it is at operating temp... due to these reports... Are these Reports all True? I have no idea... Just information that I have read in many various places...
If I do find myself sitting and idling I will place trans in neutral and raise rpms to 1K or higher. Is this ALL necessary?-->I have no idea...
I have read where there has been reports of this happening because of engine design and lifter design based all around oil pressure and oil getting to these lifters especially the front drivers side... Reports are if the Oil psi is close to 47-50psi there is never an issue but when the oil psi drops below that this area is not getting supplied the right amount of oil.. It is not starving this area of oil but just not supplying enough.
I am not a mechanic so I really can't explain what is exactly happening in mechanical terms...
There has been a few Mopar mechanics post within the Hemi forums to not let the engine idle for long periods of time once the motor as well as the oil has reached operating temp... Thus the oil psi always drops... Mine will normally drop to 42-44psi at this point...
I have read where some owners have switched to a oil that carries a very High Moly Count-->Thus hoping to add that bit of extra lubrication Barrier! One owner posted his Tick quit after switching to Redline 5W-20...
To answer your question> No my 5.7L does not have the Lifter Tick as of today... I will also state I Do Not let my 5.7L idle for very long at all once it is at operating temp... due to these reports... Are these Reports all True? I have no idea... Just information that I have read in many various places...
If I do find myself sitting and idling I will place trans in neutral and raise rpms to 1K or higher. Is this ALL necessary?-->I have no idea...
At start up I do have a bit of noise, but it only lasts for not even a second... Once Oil psi is reached everything is smooth and quiet... Love the way the Hemi Idles!!
Thus the reason I wanted to use a 0W-20 oil-->To get that oil up at the top of that motor ASAP @ startup...
I'm not to worried about a very slight brief start up noise! If it had idle noise I might be a lot more concerned...
Thus the reason I wanted to use a 0W-20 oil-->To get that oil up at the top of that motor ASAP @ startup...
I'm not to worried about a very slight brief start up noise! If it had idle noise I might be a lot more concerned...
Had not heard about not letting the engine idle for long periods. Probably not good for any engine. I had started another thread earlier and a lot of forum members seemed to think the start up clatter might be caused by the anti-drain back valve in the OEM filter. The OEM filter has a nitrile valve. I am going with one that has a silicon valve. Interestingly, my Ram has no start up clatter but the Challenger does. However, each uses a different filter. We shall see.
I as well have read posts from Hemi owners who think the oil filter could be the issue. I have not really heard any feed back from them claiming that switching helped the tick. It would be a very nice and easy fix if the right filter was found.
This Spring I am going to install this Kit to make the filter easier to reach. Plus adds for a very clean oil change. No more oil dripping on my Electric Power Steering.
http://www.hemitruckclub.com/forums/f171/2014-1500-5-7l-oil-filter-relocation-15136.html
I am going to mount the filter level though as well as keep the lines as short as I can but still allow easy filter change... The shorter the hoses the better.
This Spring I am going to install this Kit to make the filter easier to reach. Plus adds for a very clean oil change. No more oil dripping on my Electric Power Steering.
http://www.hemitruckclub.com/forums/f171/2014-1500-5-7l-oil-filter-relocation-15136.html
I am going to mount the filter level though as well as keep the lines as short as I can but still allow easy filter change... The shorter the hoses the better.
That kit certainly looks like it will make oil changes easier. I am going to do my first one on the new Ram in a couple of weeks (just turned 1K miles). I will see how it goes. I plan to drape a 33 gal plastic trash bag under the filter to prevent oil getting on everything. If I don't like the results, I may consider the kit. Thanks for the link. I will let you know if the filter makes any difference on the Challenger clatter.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
From my point of view and my experience, a good engine only need appropriated grade that passes API spec's at the time the engine was designed. Example, engine in 1994 LS400 ran with any 5-10W30 API SG or newer, after 370+k miles it still runs without a single problem.
And your point of view is what it is and you are welcome to it. I'm simply trying to explain the logic behind the manufacturer approval process. The API testing regiment historically has not been overly difficult. Combining things like high power density, extended drain intervals and forced induction can require more from a lubricant than what that spec delivers. In this case, it makes perfect sense for a manufacturer to develop and test their own procedure to evaluate lubricant performance and set the bar where it needs to be to keep the engine clean and healthy.
HTSS_TR, there's a problem with your logic, and that's that the API spec at the time took years to standardise, in the mean time engine developments march on.
And the specs are agreed on by a committee of lots of players, manufacturers, oil and additive producers, with manufacturer's promoting testing that would indicated where a test oil falls short in their specific engines...and these tests get voted in or out.
e.g. this Infineum Insights article March 2014
On the PC11 (diesel side), youcan rest assured that Detroit Diesel will have a new "DD" spec outside the API, as they were working for inclusion having seen test engines seize/scuff on 30 grades, but due to the timeline and repeatability it was not included in PC11...not that the issue didn't/doesn't exist, that the test couldn't be resolved in the timeframe of the committee.
Who knows what other submissions have been made behind the scenes in the other licencing...GF6 has GM and Japan Automobile Manufacturer Association inputs, obviously pulling the specs in different directions.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
From my point of view and my experience, a good engine only need appropriated grade that passes API spec's at the time the engine was designed. Example, engine in 1994 LS400 ran with any 5-10W30 API SG or newer, after 370+k miles it still runs without a single problem.
And your point of view is what it is and you are welcome to it. I'm simply trying to explain the logic behind the manufacturer approval process. The API testing regiment historically has not been overly difficult. Combining things like high power density, extended drain intervals and forced induction can require more from a lubricant than what that spec delivers. In this case, it makes perfect sense for a manufacturer to develop and test their own procedure to evaluate lubricant performance and set the bar where it needs to be to keep the engine clean and healthy.
HTSS_TR, there's a problem with your logic, and that's that the API spec at the time took years to standardise, in the mean time engine developments march on.
And the specs are agreed on by a committee of lots of players, manufacturers, oil and additive producers, with manufacturer's promoting testing that would indicated where a test oil falls short in their specific engines...and these tests get voted in or out.
e.g. this Infineum Insights article March 2014
On the PC11 (diesel side), youcan rest assured that Detroit Diesel will have a new "DD" spec outside the API, as they were working for inclusion having seen test engines seize/scuff on 30 grades, but due to the timeline and repeatability it was not included in PC11...not that the issue didn't/doesn't exist, that the test couldn't be resolved in the timeframe of the committee.
Who knows what other submissions have been made behind the scenes in the other licencing...GF6 has GM and Japan Automobile Manufacturer Association inputs, obviously pulling the specs in different directions.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Our local Quick Lane uses Mobil 1.
One Ford dealer here carries RP for those who want it, believe it or not.
Our local Quick Lane uses Mobil 1.
One Ford dealer here carries RP for those who want it, believe it or not.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Our local Quick Lane uses Mobil 1.
One Ford dealer here carries RP for those who want it, believe it or not.
That's actually pretty cool!
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Our local Quick Lane uses Mobil 1.
One Ford dealer here carries RP for those who want it, believe it or not.
That's actually pretty cool!
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
From my point of view and my experience, a good engine only need appropriated grade that passes API spec's at the time the engine was designed. Example, engine in 1994 LS400 ran with any 5-10W30 API SG or newer, after 370+k miles it still runs without a single problem.
And your point of view is what it is and you are welcome to it. I'm simply trying to explain the logic behind the manufacturer approval process. The API testing regiment historically has not been overly difficult. Combining things like high power density, extended drain intervals and forced induction can require more from a lubricant than what that spec delivers. In this case, it makes perfect sense for a manufacturer to develop and test their own procedure to evaluate lubricant performance and set the bar where it needs to be to keep the engine clean and healthy.
HTSS_TR, there's a problem with your logic, and that's that the API spec at the time took years to standardise, in the mean time engine developments march on.
And the specs are agreed on by a committee of lots of players, manufacturers, oil and additive producers, with manufacturer's promoting testing that would indicated where a test oil falls short in their specific engines...and these tests get voted in or out.
e.g. this Infineum Insights article March 2014
On the PC11 (diesel side), youcan rest assured that Detroit Diesel will have a new "DD" spec outside the API, as they were working for inclusion having seen test engines seize/scuff on 30 grades, but due to the timeline and repeatability it was not included in PC11...not that the issue didn't/doesn't exist, that the test couldn't be resolved in the timeframe of the committee.
Who knows what other submissions have been made behind the scenes in the other licencing...GF6 has GM and Japan Automobile Manufacturer Association inputs, obviously pulling the specs in different directions.
I don't agree. A good designed engine doesn't need more stringent oil above API specs.
Go back to 1991, the Acura NSX engine produces 270 HP from a normally aspirated 3L V6, at that time it had more power density than any normally aspirated piston engine than anyone else. What oil it required ? Conventional 5W30 with API SE or SF.
Fast forward 9 years, Honda S2000 of model year 2000 with normally aspirated 2L 4-cyl engine generated 240 HP, again more power density than any normally aspirated piston engine in the world. What oil was recommended ? Conventional 10W30 with API SH or SL (I don't remember for model year 2000, mine is 2004 and API SL is needed).
That is what I mean, a good engine doesn't require any more stringent oil specs above API. Only non-perfected engine(s) need special oil specs and/or much heavier oil such as 10W60 in some BMW engine(s), and Acura RDX needs synthetic oil that passed HTO-06 is not a good engine either.
To +90% of drivers on the road they don't have a clue about specific manufacture oil specs, the most they know is the recommended grade and API spec that their vehicle(s) need.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
From my point of view and my experience, a good engine only need appropriated grade that passes API spec's at the time the engine was designed. Example, engine in 1994 LS400 ran with any 5-10W30 API SG or newer, after 370+k miles it still runs without a single problem.
And your point of view is what it is and you are welcome to it. I'm simply trying to explain the logic behind the manufacturer approval process. The API testing regiment historically has not been overly difficult. Combining things like high power density, extended drain intervals and forced induction can require more from a lubricant than what that spec delivers. In this case, it makes perfect sense for a manufacturer to develop and test their own procedure to evaluate lubricant performance and set the bar where it needs to be to keep the engine clean and healthy.
HTSS_TR, there's a problem with your logic, and that's that the API spec at the time took years to standardise, in the mean time engine developments march on.
And the specs are agreed on by a committee of lots of players, manufacturers, oil and additive producers, with manufacturer's promoting testing that would indicated where a test oil falls short in their specific engines...and these tests get voted in or out.
e.g. this Infineum Insights article March 2014
On the PC11 (diesel side), youcan rest assured that Detroit Diesel will have a new "DD" spec outside the API, as they were working for inclusion having seen test engines seize/scuff on 30 grades, but due to the timeline and repeatability it was not included in PC11...not that the issue didn't/doesn't exist, that the test couldn't be resolved in the timeframe of the committee.
Who knows what other submissions have been made behind the scenes in the other licencing...GF6 has GM and Japan Automobile Manufacturer Association inputs, obviously pulling the specs in different directions.
I don't agree. A good designed engine doesn't need more stringent oil above API specs.
Go back to 1991, the Acura NSX engine produces 270 HP from a normally aspirated 3L V6, at that time it had more power density than any normally aspirated piston engine than anyone else. What oil it required ? Conventional 5W30 with API SE or SF.
Fast forward 9 years, Honda S2000 of model year 2000 with normally aspirated 2L 4-cyl engine generated 240 HP, again more power density than any normally aspirated piston engine in the world. What oil was recommended ? Conventional 10W30 with API SH or SL (I don't remember for model year 2000, mine is 2004 and API SL is needed).
That is what I mean, a good engine doesn't require any more stringent oil specs above API. Only non-perfected engine(s) need special oil specs and/or much heavier oil such as 10W60 in some BMW engine(s), and Acura RDX needs synthetic oil that passed HTO-06 is not a good engine either.
To +90% of drivers on the road they don't have a clue about specific manufacture oil specs, the most they know is the recommended grade and API spec that their vehicle(s) need.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Go back to 1991, the Acura NSX engine produces 270 HP from a normally aspirated 3L V6, at that time it had more power density than any normally aspirated piston engine than anyone else. What oil it required ? Conventional 5W30 with API SE or SF.
And what was the change interval? There's more to an oil spec than just wear. Also, 270HP is 270HP. Yes, it has the ability to heat the oil more than 130HP but it isn't heating the oil as much as 400HP with the same sump size. Overall power density is an important factor but not the only one. Sump size, vehicle mass...etc. There are a wide range of inputs here.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Fast forward 9 years, Honda S2000 of model year 2000 with normally aspirated 2L 4-cyl engine generated 240 HP, again more power density than any normally aspirated piston engine in the world. What oil was recommended ? Conventional 10W30 with API SH or SL (I don't remember for model year 2000, mine is 2004 and API SL is needed).
Assuming you are excluding motorcycles (that have piston engines), race cars and non mass-produced engines? Actually, this is a good example. It was 10w30 (or 5w-40 for winter use) not 5w30. Because the 5w30 would shear. They had already determined that the basic API SL 5w30 was not sufficient and would lose enough viscosity to cause issues in use, so instead of developing an oil spec for 5w30 to make it work (like they later did for HTO-06) they went to a more shear stable grade(s). This again underlines the limitations of the basic API approval.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
That is what I mean, a good engine doesn't require any more stringent oil specs above API. Only non-perfected engine(s) need special oil specs and/or much heavier oil such as 10W60 in some BMW engine(s), and Acura RDX needs synthetic oil that passed HTO-06 is not a good engine either.
So Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mercedes, McLaren, Ford, GM, Audi, Chrysler, BMW, Detroit Diesel, CATERPILLAR, CUMMINS, Perkins....etc all make defective engines? No. Do you think Honda's Indy program engines run API 5w30? Of course they don't. Are those engines defective? At some point the technology outpaces the basic lubricant specs. This has happened time and time again and this is why OEM's developed their own specs, to deal with the DEFICIENCIES of the API approval. A 550HP V10 in a 4,000lb sedan that can push up on 200Mph is going to be harder on the oil than a 240HP I4 in a 3,000lb roadster. This is not a design issue it is a design INPUT and one of many that plays into lubricant selection. Like being able to run at top speed at the rev limiter all day. That's a design parameter for AMG and BMW's M division, perhaps it isn't for Honda? Same goes for Ferrari (which also spec's a 10w-60).
I honestly don't understand this hang-up on the satisfaction of being able to run the bottom of the barrel lubricant
You don't get a prize for catering to the lowest common denominator here. There's no longevity advantage and really there's no way of qualifying the requirement because it is next to impossible to buy an oil with JUST that spec on the bottle. You buy 5w-20 for your Honda, it probably is also carrying the Ford and Chrysler approval; it is ALREADY a better product than what your engine calls for BECAUSE of that. Which ties into my next point.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
To +90% of drivers on the road they don't have a clue about specific manufacture oil specs, the most they know is the recommended grade and API spec that their vehicle(s) need.
And lucky for them, if they choose the right grade on the shelf, they will probably get an approved oil because even something like Pennzoil Conventional or 5w-20 or Valvoline conventional still has the manufacturer approvals on them. For somebody with a Euro sled, the big EURO letters on most oils designed for those applications hopefully are enough.
Do you buy the cheapest possible Chinese tires you can buy? I mean they have the basic DOT approval, that's all you should need right? Or does the fact that my car calls for a high speed rated tire also qualify as a defect in your books?
And another tangent on this absurdity, Honda has their own special ATF and still couldn't design a transmission that would hold up to save their lives. How does that play into this? Where's the generic API-rated ATF? What, there isn't one? So all transmissions are defective too because the minimum quality spec is usually a GM or Ford spec on the bottle?
The idea of manufacturer approvals came into being BECAUSE of issues observed by companies like CATERPILLAR and Detroit Diesel, a topic Doug Hillary has posted on extensively in the past. They came up with more stringent testing protocols and oils became better because of that. The Euro's saw the value in extending oil change intervals long before the Americans and Japanese were doing it. That's why BMW came up with LL-98, LL-01....etc. These oils were tested and REQUIRED to handle drain intervals several times that of the basic API lubricant. As time has marched on, the API testing protocols have been upgraded to include things like extended drains, but not to the same level as the OEM testing, and they are more than a decade behind them in the implementation. It is a lagging lowest common denominator, like everybody on the team gets a "participant" trophy. This is why the oils that you see on the shelves at Walmart have more than the API approvals on them, because nobody is drafting Gimpy Jim and his participant trophy even if he can technically play hockey.
Go back to 1991, the Acura NSX engine produces 270 HP from a normally aspirated 3L V6, at that time it had more power density than any normally aspirated piston engine than anyone else. What oil it required ? Conventional 5W30 with API SE or SF.
And what was the change interval? There's more to an oil spec than just wear. Also, 270HP is 270HP. Yes, it has the ability to heat the oil more than 130HP but it isn't heating the oil as much as 400HP with the same sump size. Overall power density is an important factor but not the only one. Sump size, vehicle mass...etc. There are a wide range of inputs here.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Fast forward 9 years, Honda S2000 of model year 2000 with normally aspirated 2L 4-cyl engine generated 240 HP, again more power density than any normally aspirated piston engine in the world. What oil was recommended ? Conventional 10W30 with API SH or SL (I don't remember for model year 2000, mine is 2004 and API SL is needed).
Assuming you are excluding motorcycles (that have piston engines), race cars and non mass-produced engines? Actually, this is a good example. It was 10w30 (or 5w-40 for winter use) not 5w30. Because the 5w30 would shear. They had already determined that the basic API SL 5w30 was not sufficient and would lose enough viscosity to cause issues in use, so instead of developing an oil spec for 5w30 to make it work (like they later did for HTO-06) they went to a more shear stable grade(s). This again underlines the limitations of the basic API approval.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
That is what I mean, a good engine doesn't require any more stringent oil specs above API. Only non-perfected engine(s) need special oil specs and/or much heavier oil such as 10W60 in some BMW engine(s), and Acura RDX needs synthetic oil that passed HTO-06 is not a good engine either.
So Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mercedes, McLaren, Ford, GM, Audi, Chrysler, BMW, Detroit Diesel, CATERPILLAR, CUMMINS, Perkins....etc all make defective engines? No. Do you think Honda's Indy program engines run API 5w30? Of course they don't. Are those engines defective? At some point the technology outpaces the basic lubricant specs. This has happened time and time again and this is why OEM's developed their own specs, to deal with the DEFICIENCIES of the API approval. A 550HP V10 in a 4,000lb sedan that can push up on 200Mph is going to be harder on the oil than a 240HP I4 in a 3,000lb roadster. This is not a design issue it is a design INPUT and one of many that plays into lubricant selection. Like being able to run at top speed at the rev limiter all day. That's a design parameter for AMG and BMW's M division, perhaps it isn't for Honda? Same goes for Ferrari (which also spec's a 10w-60).
I honestly don't understand this hang-up on the satisfaction of being able to run the bottom of the barrel lubricant
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
To +90% of drivers on the road they don't have a clue about specific manufacture oil specs, the most they know is the recommended grade and API spec that their vehicle(s) need.
And lucky for them, if they choose the right grade on the shelf, they will probably get an approved oil because even something like Pennzoil Conventional or 5w-20 or Valvoline conventional still has the manufacturer approvals on them. For somebody with a Euro sled, the big EURO letters on most oils designed for those applications hopefully are enough.
Do you buy the cheapest possible Chinese tires you can buy? I mean they have the basic DOT approval, that's all you should need right? Or does the fact that my car calls for a high speed rated tire also qualify as a defect in your books?
And another tangent on this absurdity, Honda has their own special ATF and still couldn't design a transmission that would hold up to save their lives. How does that play into this? Where's the generic API-rated ATF? What, there isn't one? So all transmissions are defective too because the minimum quality spec is usually a GM or Ford spec on the bottle?
The idea of manufacturer approvals came into being BECAUSE of issues observed by companies like CATERPILLAR and Detroit Diesel, a topic Doug Hillary has posted on extensively in the past. They came up with more stringent testing protocols and oils became better because of that. The Euro's saw the value in extending oil change intervals long before the Americans and Japanese were doing it. That's why BMW came up with LL-98, LL-01....etc. These oils were tested and REQUIRED to handle drain intervals several times that of the basic API lubricant. As time has marched on, the API testing protocols have been upgraded to include things like extended drains, but not to the same level as the OEM testing, and they are more than a decade behind them in the implementation. It is a lagging lowest common denominator, like everybody on the team gets a "participant" trophy. This is why the oils that you see on the shelves at Walmart have more than the API approvals on them, because nobody is drafting Gimpy Jim and his participant trophy even if he can technically play hockey.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
That's actually pretty cool!
I didn't check the price, but no one can say they don't give a customer options, even outside of exact specifications.
That's actually pretty cool!
I didn't check the price, but no one can say they don't give a customer options, even outside of exact specifications.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I don't agree. A good designed engine doesn't need more stringent oil above API specs.
So if they were properly designed, they should be run satisfactorily on SA, and there would have been no evolution of specs.
It's a circular process.
I don't agree. A good designed engine doesn't need more stringent oil above API specs.
So if they were properly designed, they should be run satisfactorily on SA, and there would have been no evolution of specs.
It's a circular process.
- Status
