Dodge Challenger 6.4L Lifter Failure?

MolaKule

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This morning I brought in my S-10 for a general mechanical check and a fluid change because my grandson needs a truck, so I wanted to give it to him in good condition. But the question is not about the S-10.

The manager said she had to replace the engine in her Dodge Challenger with a crate engine because she had a single lifter failure. The cam was also damaged.

She is the second owner of this Challenger.

Has anyone else heard or know of anyone who has had lifter failures in this engine?
 
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Had to.. or she wanted to drop in a hellcat engine? Instead of repairing. 😉
 
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D60

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It's a known problem

Cool photo of carnage here:
 

MolaKule

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Had to.. or she wanted to drop in a hellcat engine? Instead of repairing.
She had to. Don't know if the replacement is the hellcat modded version or not. I'll ask her when I pick up the S-10.
 
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MolaKule

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It's a known problem

Cool photo of carnage here:
Thanks for the link. Yes, she was getting an engine misfire code. Since there was so much metal in the pan after they dropped it, they (her dad is the main mechanic) decided on a new engine.
 
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It's a known problem

Cool photo of carnage here:
A very known problem:




 

MolaKule

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A very known problem:





Thanks, so the roller freezes, scuffs the cam, and its downhill from there. It also appears the cam has or had a heat treating problem.

Since I am not a late model Dodge person per se, thanks for the info.
 
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Thanks, so the roller freezes, scuffs the cam, and its downhill from there. It also appears the cam has or had a heat treating problem.

Since I am not a late model Dodge person per se, thanks for the info.
I think it's a lifter and cam heat treat issue. Overkill has posted quite a bit on the subject here on BITOG as well.

 
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Had to.. or she wanted to drop in a hellcat engine? Instead of repairing. 😉
If debris was found in the OCV valves, repairing is not an option; the engine must be replaced. @MolaKule , this is probably why she had to replace the engine instead of replacing the cam and lifters.

1661874853140.jpg
 

OVERKILL

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This must all be a lie, just last week I was told there are no problems with Dodge engines.
It's a very low rate of occurrence and GM is having the same problem with the lifters in the LSx engines. Both have revised their lifters many times, it's a QC issue, not a problem with the engine.
 

OVERKILL

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This morning I brought in my S-10 for a general mechanical check and a fluid change because my grandson needs a truck, so I wanted to give it to him in good condition. But the question is not about the S-10.

The manager said she had to replace the engine in her Dodge Challenger with a crate engine because she had a single lifter failure. The cam was also damaged.

She is the second owner of this Challenger.

Has anyone else heard or know of anyone who has had lifter failures in this engine?
I've posted a ton on this.

Basically:
FCA and GM are both having lifter QC issues with GM's issues being more prevalent on their (more complex) AFM lifters, while FCA's issue seems to affect both MDS and non-MDS lifters, so an MDS delete doesn't lessen the likelihood unlike with an AFM delete. They've both had several iterations of lifters, I posted the FCA list a while back, there are a LOT of part #'s.

I speculated on the mechanism of failure but @TeamZero who has personal experience with the problem detailed it. On a defective lifter, the roller or the pin are improperly heat treated and eventually the needles wear a groove in the soft section. Once the groove is pronounced enough, the needles will "catch" in it and eventually pile-up and the roller stops rolling. Once that happens, this rapidly wears both the lobe and seized roller. This can, if not caught early, result in metal making its way into adjacent lifters, binding them up and making a cascading failure of sorts.

GM uses billet camshafts, so, if caught early, there is a chance that the camshaft survives. FCA uses SADI camshafts which, once the surface hardening is breached, which can happen very quickly, are done.

As I noted, since it affects both MDS and non-MDS lifters, the issue is not isolated to MDS engines, which means it also happens in the 6.2L Supercharged (Hellcat) engines. You don't hear about it as frequently with the 6.4L and 6.2L because:
A. The issue isn't really all that common; the rate of occurrence is actually quite low, there are just millions of these engines, with most being 5.7L
B. The 6.4L and 6.2L are relatively low volume, so even if the ROO is the same as the 5.7L, this means we'd see far fewer of them. My dealer has never seen it in a 6.4L or 6.2L for example.
 
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I've posted a ton on this.

Basically:
FCA and GM are both having lifter QC issues with GM's issues being more prevalent on their (more complex) AFM lifters, while FCA's issue seems to affect both MDS and non-MDS lifters, so an MDS delete doesn't lessen the likelihood unlike with an AFM delete. They've both had several iterations of lifters, I posted the FCA list a while back, there are a LOT of part #'s.

I speculated on the mechanism of failure but @TeamZero who has personal experience with the problem detailed it. On a defective lifter, the roller or the pin are improperly heat treated and eventually the needles wear a groove in the soft section. Once the groove is pronounced enough, the needles will "catch" in it and eventually pile-up and the roller stops rolling. Once that happens, this rapidly wears both the lobe and seized roller. This can, if not caught early, result in metal making its way into adjacent lifters, binding them up and making a cascading failure of sorts.

GM uses billet camshafts, so, if caught early, there is a chance that the camshaft survives. FCA uses SADI camshafts which, once the surface hardening is breached, which can happen very quickly, are done.

As I noted, since it affects both MDS and non-MDS lifters, the issue is not isolated to MDS engines, which means it also happens in the 6.2L Supercharged (Hellcat) engines. You don't hear about it as frequently with the 6.4L and 6.2L because:
A. The issue isn't really all that common; the rate of occurrence is actually quite low, there are just millions of these engines, with most being 5.7L
B. The 6.4L and 6.2L are relatively low volume, so even if the ROO is the same as the 5.7L, this means we'd see far fewer of them. My dealer has never seen it in a 6.4L or 6.2L for example.
Why would something like an upgraded part take so long for the automakers to resolve?
 

OVERKILL

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Why would something like an upgraded part take so long for the automakers to resolve?
Because I think ultimately the "upgrade" didn't address the root of the problem, which is simply vendor QC. I'm not sure where these lifters (for both GM and FCA) are being sourced from, but clearly, they are having issues with consistent and proper hardening.
 

JTK

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Thanks for the link. Yes, she was getting an engine misfire code. Since there was so much metal in the pan after they dropped it, they (her dad is the main mechanic) decided on a new engine.

That's a shame because had she addressed the ticking issue earlier, the engine could have been saved. Perhaps an entire engine swap is more applicable in this particular car.
 
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