I'll probably run mine from November 1st till March 1st.
Do you run your snow tires all winter?
- Thread starter KST
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Snows go on at or just before the first snowfall that will stick. They stay on until the threat of good sticking snow subsides, generally very early April is normal for me.
I use a set of junkyard stock alloy rims, so there is no weight penalty.
I use a set of junkyard stock alloy rims, so there is no weight penalty.
I use this rule of thumb for when my winter tires go on and off. Day and night temperatures consistently below freezing or a snowfall being forecast that will stick dictates when they come on. Usually ends up being between Canadian Thanksgiving and Halloween (mid October to October 31). They come off in the spring when temperatures stay consistently above 7C, which means some time in April. Adjusted to accommodate fall or spring road trips through the mountains, when I go out of town for work (so the change is already done for my wife) and of course to accommodate my schedule for other things. I would never have time to keep switching all winter long.
I used to live in Vancouver, so the same Pacific Northwest climate. I followed a similar rule there too, and never bothered switching back and forth as I could think of better things to do. The season they were on the car then was of course much shorter.
I used to live in Vancouver, so the same Pacific Northwest climate. I followed a similar rule there too, and never bothered switching back and forth as I could think of better things to do. The season they were on the car then was of course much shorter.
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: KST
or just put them on when there is a threat of snow?
Putting on my snow tires mounted on steelies make my Subaru sluggish compared to the stock setup of alloy wheels.
So I put them on only when the threat of snow is predicted, as happened last week, and remove them once it subsides.
Anyone else do this?
I have never heard of anyone doing this...You would be taking them on and off every week or two, and who has time for that?
I forgot to mention my grandpa did this with the Montana when we had it. Because he had studded tires (which, btw, I advised him against and tried to steer him to a studless instead, or, at least not studding the ones he got) he didnt like the noise or the vibration in the dry.
He would put them on for going over the Pass to Seattle or if it decided to snow here. It got so bad with him switching them out all the time, and I was worried about his health. So, I would listen for him to mention he was going to swap them out and go behind his back and do it for him. It'd only take 10-15 minutes.
Originally Posted By: KST
or just put them on when there is a threat of snow?
Putting on my snow tires mounted on steelies make my Subaru sluggish compared to the stock setup of alloy wheels.
So I put them on only when the threat of snow is predicted, as happened last week, and remove them once it subsides.
Anyone else do this?
I have never heard of anyone doing this...You would be taking them on and off every week or two, and who has time for that?
I forgot to mention my grandpa did this with the Montana when we had it. Because he had studded tires (which, btw, I advised him against and tried to steer him to a studless instead, or, at least not studding the ones he got) he didnt like the noise or the vibration in the dry.
He would put them on for going over the Pass to Seattle or if it decided to snow here. It got so bad with him switching them out all the time, and I was worried about his health. So, I would listen for him to mention he was going to swap them out and go behind his back and do it for him. It'd only take 10-15 minutes.
The key temp is 45F. AS tire compounds are designed to work down to that temperature and winters start accelerated wear above those temperatures. Winters are also superior rain tires as they are designed to evacuate more volume/in2 than AS. So, once it gets cold, put them on and leave them on.
I avoided the whole extra set of wheels routine by cutting a deal with my friendly neighborhood Firestone Complete Auto Care Manager. I buy my Bizzaks (and all other tires) from him plus give him all my non-DIY maintenance on four vehicles and he swaps tires for no charge spring and fall. Two of four cars have Blizzaks so he does this twice per year on two cars. He also got the order for a new set of AS last year and $3-4,000 in maintenance work. Good deal for both of us. So I buy winters in the OE size.
Also, regarding performance of winters, you all should know there are two types, "Ice & Snow" (WS-70 e.g.) and hi-perf (LM). Ice & Snows are for max traction and are not speed rated. They will reduce high speed handling markedly because of tread flex. High Perf Blizzaks are speed rated and much closer in cornering capability although you shouldn't expect them to match your summer-only Potenzas. Blizzaks are a gamechanger. If you haven't tried them, do it. You will never go back to AS.
I avoided the whole extra set of wheels routine by cutting a deal with my friendly neighborhood Firestone Complete Auto Care Manager. I buy my Bizzaks (and all other tires) from him plus give him all my non-DIY maintenance on four vehicles and he swaps tires for no charge spring and fall. Two of four cars have Blizzaks so he does this twice per year on two cars. He also got the order for a new set of AS last year and $3-4,000 in maintenance work. Good deal for both of us. So I buy winters in the OE size.
Also, regarding performance of winters, you all should know there are two types, "Ice & Snow" (WS-70 e.g.) and hi-perf (LM). Ice & Snows are for max traction and are not speed rated. They will reduce high speed handling markedly because of tread flex. High Perf Blizzaks are speed rated and much closer in cornering capability although you shouldn't expect them to match your summer-only Potenzas. Blizzaks are a gamechanger. If you haven't tried them, do it. You will never go back to AS.
Originally Posted By: KST
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: KST
Putting on my snow tires mounted on steelies make my Subaru sluggish compared to the stock setup of alloy wheels.
Are you speaking of handling or acceleration? If they're the correct size, you shouldn't notice any difference in performance.
To answer your question, I put mine on at the first sign of snow, which is usually close to Christmas in my area, and leave them on until the 2nd week in April or so. One year we had 14" of snow on April Fool's Day, so I got paranoid...
So i just finished changing them. I took the opportunity to weigh them. the snows were 49# and the stock alloys were 39#.
I think the extra weight make a already sluggish vehicle like my Subaru, even worse.
Next time get some smaller snow tires. I run 155/80R13 pizza cutters on the Neon and the car is noticably quicker with the overall gearing reduction and lighter weight. I keep them on from the beginning of Nov. to about the middle of April. If you get studdable ones(which are also quite inexpensive), they last OK on the many warm dry days.
For example, we ran some studdable snow tires this summer on the Tracker and they held up quite well, and are good for some off roading in the pasture. I think I'll get 2 more 10k mile summers out of them.
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: KST
Putting on my snow tires mounted on steelies make my Subaru sluggish compared to the stock setup of alloy wheels.
Are you speaking of handling or acceleration? If they're the correct size, you shouldn't notice any difference in performance.
To answer your question, I put mine on at the first sign of snow, which is usually close to Christmas in my area, and leave them on until the 2nd week in April or so. One year we had 14" of snow on April Fool's Day, so I got paranoid...
So i just finished changing them. I took the opportunity to weigh them. the snows were 49# and the stock alloys were 39#.
I think the extra weight make a already sluggish vehicle like my Subaru, even worse.
Next time get some smaller snow tires. I run 155/80R13 pizza cutters on the Neon and the car is noticably quicker with the overall gearing reduction and lighter weight. I keep them on from the beginning of Nov. to about the middle of April. If you get studdable ones(which are also quite inexpensive), they last OK on the many warm dry days.
For example, we ran some studdable snow tires this summer on the Tracker and they held up quite well, and are good for some off roading in the pasture. I think I'll get 2 more 10k mile summers out of them.
I change mine when the first snow is forecast - partly because the salt/brine they use around here is toxic for my chrome summer wheels. I run Michelin performance winters, Pilot Alpin PA3's, though I now see PA4's are apparently coming out - though not sure what sizes will be available.
My PA3's are V rated, and trade off a little snow capability for enhanced wet traction/stopping. This works well for me - as the roads/streets around here tend to be wet for a week after a big snow.
I usually end up switching in early December and back in late March/early April - depending on the forecast.
My PA3's are V rated, and trade off a little snow capability for enhanced wet traction/stopping. This works well for me - as the roads/streets around here tend to be wet for a week after a big snow.
I usually end up switching in early December and back in late March/early April - depending on the forecast.
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
The key temp is 45F. AS tire compounds are designed to work down to that temperature and winters start accelerated wear above those temperatures. Winters are also superior rain tires as they are designed to evacuate more volume/in2 than AS. So, once it gets cold, put them on and leave them on.........
This 2009 test from C&D has cast some doubt on 45F being a key temp.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2009-winter-tire-test-comparison-tests
"We compare four categories of tires able to deal with winter and come up with some surprising results."
There was also a test from one of the Russian auto magazines demonstrating that summer tires lost very little dry road traction at 32F (don't have a link handy).
The key temp is 45F. AS tire compounds are designed to work down to that temperature and winters start accelerated wear above those temperatures. Winters are also superior rain tires as they are designed to evacuate more volume/in2 than AS. So, once it gets cold, put them on and leave them on.........
This 2009 test from C&D has cast some doubt on 45F being a key temp.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2009-winter-tire-test-comparison-tests
"We compare four categories of tires able to deal with winter and come up with some surprising results."
There was also a test from one of the Russian auto magazines demonstrating that summer tires lost very little dry road traction at 32F (don't have a link handy).
I'd have liked to see them use more than one brand.. maybe michelin payed for that test?
I'm not convinced any of the michelins are "great" for snow traction.. the voids are too small even on the xice xi2
the whole test is flawed too..and slightly retarded...
what are they trying to prove?
yes snow tires = better in snow.. yes they handle worse..
their whole test is the equivalent of saying 1<2... otherwise known as DUH!.
I'm not convinced any of the michelins are "great" for snow traction.. the voids are too small even on the xice xi2
the whole test is flawed too..and slightly retarded...
what are they trying to prove?
yes snow tires = better in snow.. yes they handle worse..
their whole test is the equivalent of saying 1<2... otherwise known as DUH!.
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Originally Posted By: Scum_Frog
Winter tires are not just for snow, it is recommended that winter tires be run once the average temp in below 7C. Same for switching back to summer/all season at above 7C.
It's a CYA recommendation in case you have a situation where you can get ice while the air temperature is above freezing, such as a warm morning after a cold night, where the tires and roads could be covered in icy condensation.
I see that SubLGT beat me to posting the same link as I did on another thread!
I never go back and forth on my winter tires. Once we get snow, the roads are icy until spring. They come off in mid-April to early May. I have been caught in some serious snow after removing my winters in May!
Winter tires are not just for snow, it is recommended that winter tires be run once the average temp in below 7C. Same for switching back to summer/all season at above 7C.
It's a CYA recommendation in case you have a situation where you can get ice while the air temperature is above freezing, such as a warm morning after a cold night, where the tires and roads could be covered in icy condensation.
I see that SubLGT beat me to posting the same link as I did on another thread!
I never go back and forth on my winter tires. Once we get snow, the roads are icy until spring. They come off in mid-April to early May. I have been caught in some serious snow after removing my winters in May!
Originally Posted By: Rand
I'd have liked to see them use more than one brand.. maybe michelin payed for that test?
I'm not convinced any of the michelins are "great" for snow traction.. the voids are too small even on the xice xi2
the whole test is flawed too..and slightly retarded...
what are they trying to prove?
yes snow tires = better in snow.. yes they handle worse..
their whole test is the equivalent of saying 1div>
They proved that their all-season tires have better traction on wet and dry pavement in cool temperatures than their winter tires. That may be obvious to you, but it isn't obvious to most. In fact, many people seem to have the impression that winter tires are always better on clean dry pavement below 7C.
In what way is the test flawed?
It certainly would be nice if every tire manufacturer sponsored similar testing, but we have to take what we can get. The Michelin all-seasons tested are among the best warm-weather-performing all-season tires one can buy in their respective categories, while the Michelin all-seasons have fared poorly in wet braking in the NAF test. However, if you skew the X-Ice's numbers to compensate for the fact that the best studless winter tires stopped 8% shorter on wet asphalt in the NAF test, the all-seasons would still win in this Car and Driver test.
The Michelin winter tires aren't bad in snow, though they're not near the top of the pack either. They averaged fifth out of eight studless tires in the three types of snow performance testing conducted by the NAF. The X-Ice XI2, the overall highest-rated studless tire in the test, did beat the Blizzak WS-70 and Yokohama IceGuard IG30 in every one of those snow tests, while also beating Pirelli and Kumho in two of the three.
NAF 2011 Winter Tire Test
I'd have liked to see them use more than one brand.. maybe michelin payed for that test?
I'm not convinced any of the michelins are "great" for snow traction.. the voids are too small even on the xice xi2
the whole test is flawed too..and slightly retarded...
what are they trying to prove?
yes snow tires = better in snow.. yes they handle worse..
their whole test is the equivalent of saying 1div>
They proved that their all-season tires have better traction on wet and dry pavement in cool temperatures than their winter tires. That may be obvious to you, but it isn't obvious to most. In fact, many people seem to have the impression that winter tires are always better on clean dry pavement below 7C.
In what way is the test flawed?
It certainly would be nice if every tire manufacturer sponsored similar testing, but we have to take what we can get. The Michelin all-seasons tested are among the best warm-weather-performing all-season tires one can buy in their respective categories, while the Michelin all-seasons have fared poorly in wet braking in the NAF test. However, if you skew the X-Ice's numbers to compensate for the fact that the best studless winter tires stopped 8% shorter on wet asphalt in the NAF test, the all-seasons would still win in this Car and Driver test.
The Michelin winter tires aren't bad in snow, though they're not near the top of the pack either. They averaged fifth out of eight studless tires in the three types of snow performance testing conducted by the NAF. The X-Ice XI2, the overall highest-rated studless tire in the test, did beat the Blizzak WS-70 and Yokohama IceGuard IG30 in every one of those snow tests, while also beating Pirelli and Kumho in two of the three.
NAF 2011 Winter Tire Test
Here's a test where the winter tire does outperform the all-seasons at both 7F and 21F. The winter tire is the Goodyear Nordic. The regular all-season is a Goodyear Allegra, while the performance all-season is the Goodyear Eagle GT.
Goodyear Tire Test at Wheels.ca
The Goodyear all-seasons tested here do not have the traction of the Michelin all-seasons though. They're in lower performance categories and carry a much lower price. But then, the Nordic is also inexpensive relative to the X-Ice. As an unstudded studdable tire, I would have expected the Nordic to have an advantage on dry/wet pavement compared to the soft-compound X-Ice, but the NAF wet braking results of the studded Dunlop SP Ice Response (the seemingly identical European version of the Nordic) suggest that an unstudded version would likely be about equal to the X-Ice in that category, considering that Tire Rack found a 5% increase in wet stopping distance by studding the General Altimax Arctic.
NAF 2010 Winter Tire Test
So it seems that no generalizations can be made on this subject.
Goodyear Tire Test at Wheels.ca
The Goodyear all-seasons tested here do not have the traction of the Michelin all-seasons though. They're in lower performance categories and carry a much lower price. But then, the Nordic is also inexpensive relative to the X-Ice. As an unstudded studdable tire, I would have expected the Nordic to have an advantage on dry/wet pavement compared to the soft-compound X-Ice, but the NAF wet braking results of the studded Dunlop SP Ice Response (the seemingly identical European version of the Nordic) suggest that an unstudded version would likely be about equal to the X-Ice in that category, considering that Tire Rack found a 5% increase in wet stopping distance by studding the General Altimax Arctic.
NAF 2010 Winter Tire Test
So it seems that no generalizations can be made on this subject.
That wheels.ca article is just poorly written:
Quote:
In February at minus-12 to minus-14 C and on a heavily overcast day, the skid pad numbers showed the Nordic was a clear winner at .433 G, the all-season Allegra came in at .397 G of grip while the big fat Eagle GT managed .370 G. I mention the width because while all the tires were nominally the same size, the Eagle was built wider to maximize its summer grip. That extra width probably gave it an unfair advantage in all our tests.
No, actually, you don't mention the width. When you say all the tires were nominally the same size, do you mean they're all, say, 205/55R16s? If that's the case, then I'd be shocked if all three tires had the same tread width - performance tires will generally have a wider, softer shoulder that's better for the transitional handling characteristics of the tire, while winter tires have sharp square shoulders that are better for lateral grip on snow. Either way, you're not really talking about a characteristic that in and of itself is going to have a big effect on steady-state lateral grip on clear pavement.
If the guy is this sloppy when it comes to writing the article, I question how thorough and conscientious he was when arranging the testing.
Quote:
In February at minus-12 to minus-14 C and on a heavily overcast day, the skid pad numbers showed the Nordic was a clear winner at .433 G, the all-season Allegra came in at .397 G of grip while the big fat Eagle GT managed .370 G. I mention the width because while all the tires were nominally the same size, the Eagle was built wider to maximize its summer grip. That extra width probably gave it an unfair advantage in all our tests.
No, actually, you don't mention the width. When you say all the tires were nominally the same size, do you mean they're all, say, 205/55R16s? If that's the case, then I'd be shocked if all three tires had the same tread width - performance tires will generally have a wider, softer shoulder that's better for the transitional handling characteristics of the tire, while winter tires have sharp square shoulders that are better for lateral grip on snow. Either way, you're not really talking about a characteristic that in and of itself is going to have a big effect on steady-state lateral grip on clear pavement.
If the guy is this sloppy when it comes to writing the article, I question how thorough and conscientious he was when arranging the testing.
Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
No, actually, you don't mention the width. When you say all the tires were nominally the same size, do you mean they're all, say, 205/55R16s? If that's the case, then I'd be shocked if all three tires had the same tread width - performance tires will generally have a wider, softer shoulder that's better for the transitional handling characteristics of the tire, while winter tires have sharp square shoulders that are better for lateral grip on snow. Either way, you're not really talking about a characteristic that in and of itself is going to have a big effect on steady-state lateral grip on clear pavement.
If the guy is this sloppy when it comes to writing the article, I question how thorough and conscientious he was when arranging the testing.
That useless drivel that passes off as "automotive journalism" is shared by newspapers across Canada. No matter what they write about, it is poorly written and often inaccurate. I never bother reading those "articles" unless I want a chuckle.
No, actually, you don't mention the width. When you say all the tires were nominally the same size, do you mean they're all, say, 205/55R16s? If that's the case, then I'd be shocked if all three tires had the same tread width - performance tires will generally have a wider, softer shoulder that's better for the transitional handling characteristics of the tire, while winter tires have sharp square shoulders that are better for lateral grip on snow. Either way, you're not really talking about a characteristic that in and of itself is going to have a big effect on steady-state lateral grip on clear pavement.
If the guy is this sloppy when it comes to writing the article, I question how thorough and conscientious he was when arranging the testing.
That useless drivel that passes off as "automotive journalism" is shared by newspapers across Canada. No matter what they write about, it is poorly written and often inaccurate. I never bother reading those "articles" unless I want a chuckle.
Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
That wheels.ca article is just poorly written:
Quote:
. . . That extra width probably gave it an unfair advantage in all our tests.
. . .
I wasn't paying much attention to anything but the numbers when I skimmed the article. It's pretty lame that the tire size isn't mentioned, but it's worse that the writer thinks a wider tire is an advantage in those test conditions. A narrower tire would warm up better.
Here's another Car and Driver test where they tested Goodyear winter, summer, and all-season tires on dry and wet pavement at 77F. The Eagle Ultra Grip winter tire actually outperformed the Eagle RS-A on wet pavement.
C&D - Warm Weather Tire Testing
That wheels.ca article is just poorly written:
Quote:
. . . That extra width probably gave it an unfair advantage in all our tests.
. . .
I wasn't paying much attention to anything but the numbers when I skimmed the article. It's pretty lame that the tire size isn't mentioned, but it's worse that the writer thinks a wider tire is an advantage in those test conditions. A narrower tire would warm up better.
Here's another Car and Driver test where they tested Goodyear winter, summer, and all-season tires on dry and wet pavement at 77F. The Eagle Ultra Grip winter tire actually outperformed the Eagle RS-A on wet pavement.
C&D - Warm Weather Tire Testing
Originally Posted By: qr25de
Incorrect. Unsprung weight is THE most important factor of how a vehicle "feels" and responds. It is THE X variable when determining impulse response to energy imparted by road dynamics....rather more or less the k coefficient...
It's important, but I'd say the stiffness of the sidewall and tread blocks is a much bigger factor, and winter tires typically don't have much in that regard.
My friend's Q-rated 185/70R14 winter tires on steelies are a little lighter than her H-rated 195/65R14 all-seasons on steelies. Guess which ones have dramatically better steering feel and response!
Incorrect. Unsprung weight is THE most important factor of how a vehicle "feels" and responds. It is THE X variable when determining impulse response to energy imparted by road dynamics....rather more or less the k coefficient...
It's important, but I'd say the stiffness of the sidewall and tread blocks is a much bigger factor, and winter tires typically don't have much in that regard.
My friend's Q-rated 185/70R14 winter tires on steelies are a little lighter than her H-rated 195/65R14 all-seasons on steelies. Guess which ones have dramatically better steering feel and response!
Originally Posted By: rpn453
The Eagle Ultra Grip winter tire actually outperformed the Eagle RS-A on wet pavement.
Yeah, well BITOG's filter won't let me use the clever backronym that Mazda3Forum uses for RS-A.
The Eagle Ultra Grip winter tire actually outperformed the Eagle RS-A on wet pavement.
Yeah, well BITOG's filter won't let me use the clever backronym that Mazda3Forum uses for RS-A.
Originally Posted By: rpn453
It's important, but I'd say the stiffness of the sidewall and tread blocks is a much bigger factor, and winter tires typically don't have much in that regard.
My friend's Q-rated 185/70R14 winter tires on steelies are a little lighter than her H-rated 195/65R14 all-seasons on steelies. Guess which ones have dramatically better steering feel and response!
I'd have to agree. unsprung weight might hurt on a rough road..
but tread squirm and sidewall flex are a much bigger factor during normal driving.
You have a ton of sipes, some form of aggressive tall tread pattern.. a super soft tread compound.. and flexible sidewalls = marshmallow feel esp above 40F
I could mount them on ultralight alum rims.. wouldnt matter.
It's important, but I'd say the stiffness of the sidewall and tread blocks is a much bigger factor, and winter tires typically don't have much in that regard.
My friend's Q-rated 185/70R14 winter tires on steelies are a little lighter than her H-rated 195/65R14 all-seasons on steelies. Guess which ones have dramatically better steering feel and response!
I'd have to agree. unsprung weight might hurt on a rough road..
but tread squirm and sidewall flex are a much bigger factor during normal driving.
You have a ton of sipes, some form of aggressive tall tread pattern.. a super soft tread compound.. and flexible sidewalls = marshmallow feel esp above 40F
I could mount them on ultralight alum rims.. wouldnt matter.
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