Do low micron oil filters really make a difference?

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True, Zee, but to the opposite point, I await any evidence that the minor differences available in filters today make in difference in wear control. What is abundantly clear to those who understand is that the GM filter study does not translate into what we all practice in our garages. What we see in everyday use from literally tens of thousands of used oil analysis is that once a system is "clean enough", it does not need to be any cleaner to provide a VERY long practical life-cycle.

The reason BP filters are so effective in the long OCIs is that they hold down contaminant size AFTER a point in which the loading actually gets big enough, in enough quantity, to otherwise be a problem. Until the loading gets that bad, it's essentially moot. OCIs flush out what filters can remove.

It's incorrect to believe that equipment longevity is mutually exclusive either to OCIs or filtration, individually. The oil additives and TCB are in control in shorter OCIs, up to 15k miles. Once some threshold is passed, it is finer filtration that matters. But since MOST BIGOGers are predisposed to frequent OFCIs, there is no benefit to them for super premium filters.
 
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Originally Posted by dnewton3
True, Zee, but to the opposite point, I await any evidence that the minor differences available in filters today make in difference in wear control. What is abundantly clear to those who understand is that the GM filter study does not translate into what we all practice in our garages. What we see in everyday use from literally tens of thousands of used oil analysis is that once a system is "clean enough", it does not need to be any cleaner to provide a VERY long practical life-cycle.


Agreed that the GM study doesn't represent "real life" ... but like any engine wear vs oil cleanliness study, the result is always that cleaner oil results in less wear. As you know, the SAE Bus Study does show a correlation between oil filter efficiency and less engine wear on a more practical level. I personally don't care if the real world difference is small and that the system is "clean enough". My goal is a system that is "as clean as possible" without going to the next step of bypass filtration.

Originally Posted by dnewton3
It's incorrect to believe that equipment longevity is mutually exclusive either to OCIs or filtration, individually. The oil additives and TCB are in control in shorter OCIs, up to 15k miles. Once some threshold is passed, it is finer filtration that matters. But since MOST BIGOGers are predisposed to frequent OFCIs, there is no benefit to them for super premium filters.


Of course it's multiple factors that will result in keeping the oil as clean as possible - air filter with a leak free intake system, oil filter and decent OCI intervals. If I ran an inefficient air filter or oil filter, or went way too long on OCIs, then I'm not keeping all 3 factors optimized. That's just me and how I operate my vehicles.
 
Are there any premium car filters that actually do 98-99% at 10 microns? I thought those numbers were for 20 microns and larger.
 
Originally Posted by ZZman
Are there any premium car filters that actually do 98-99% at 10 microns? I thought those numbers were for 20 microns and larger.

Nothing that I'm aware of that is considered easily available and made for true direct consumer applications.

There is the Wix 57151 for the 6.7L PSD; beta of 2/20/75=3/12/17.
That's darn impressive for a FF over-the-counter filter.
 
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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by dnewton3
True, Zee, but to the opposite point, I await any evidence that the minor differences available in filters today make in difference in wear control. What is abundantly clear to those who understand is that the GM filter study does not translate into what we all practice in our garages. What we see in everyday use from literally tens of thousands of used oil analysis is that once a system is "clean enough", it does not need to be any cleaner to provide a VERY long practical life-cycle.


Agreed that the GM study doesn't represent "real life" ... but like any engine wear vs oil cleanliness study, the result is always that cleaner oil results in less wear. As you know, the SAE Bus Study does show a correlation between oil filter efficiency and less engine wear on a more practical level. I personally don't care if the real world difference is small and that the system is "clean enough". My goal is a system that is "as clean as possible" without going to the next step of bypass filtration.

Originally Posted by dnewton3
It's incorrect to believe that equipment longevity is mutually exclusive either to OCIs or filtration, individually. The oil additives and TCB are in control in shorter OCIs, up to 15k miles. Once some threshold is passed, it is finer filtration that matters. But since MOST BIGOGers are predisposed to frequent OFCIs, there is no benefit to them for super premium filters.


Of course it's multiple factors that will result in keeping the oil as clean as possible - air filter with a leak free intake system, oil filter and decent OCI intervals. If I ran an inefficient air filter or oil filter, or went way too long on OCIs, then I'm not keeping all 3 factors optimized. That's just me and how I operate my vehicles.

I know we generally agree overall, Zee.

I find good data in the "bus study". But that same study which shows good correlation between PC and UOA data, also allows us to conclude that if there is no substantial difference in UOA data when using two different filters (say a 90% and 99%), then we've reached a point of diminishing return. We're trapping a slight bit more stuff, and yet wear is going unaffected. This would be for "normal" OCIs; no more than 15k miles. The delta of capture efficiency may make a difference in longer OCIs, but we don't have data to prove that one way or another.

Simply put, I do agree with you that the theory of tighter filtration which does not restrict flow is a good thing. But that's theory because there's no study to prove it. And in fact there are tens of thousands of used oil analysis to prove that once a system is "clean enough", getting cleaner is moot because you can no longer see evidence of filtration choices. We see evidence of this daily; the wear rates go so low in "normal" OCIs that we cannot distinguish the differences between filter choices due to the "noise" of normal everyday variation. What little a filter might make a difference is obscured by the gulf of typical day-to-day operation.

I am willing to pay a slightly higher price to get a "good" filter, but I'm not willing to pay a premium price for a super-duper filter, when that top-line filter is not proven to make any distinguishable difference in wear data.
 
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Originally Posted by ZZman
Are there any premium car filters that actually do 98-99% at 10 microns? I thought those numbers were for 20 microns and larger.


Back in 2002 (when I first posted this thread) I think there were a few filters that claimed to filter down to that level, but it's been so long I can't say for sure which ones claimed that. (nor do I have any proof that any of them actually did)
 
Originally Posted by Sayjac
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….Soon as I'm done with the filters I have stocked up, I'm probably never gonna use another dome end filter design....
You will be eliminating the majority of oil filters including FU. Best information (including but not limited to Jim Allen former sticky this subforum) says bypass events are rare and when they do occur of very short duration. That's why while thread end bypass is nice in concept, in real world use, bypass location not huge deal either way imo.

Yeah it becomes a narrow lost but that's fine there are wix filters for all my applications I know for sure. Motorcraft for 2. I don't even know where to get RP filters but wanna check those out too.
 
Originally Posted by dnewton3
Simply put, I do agree with you that the theory of tighter filtration which does not restrict flow is a good thing. But that's theory because there's no study to prove it.


Seems about every engine wear vs oil cleanliness study done pretty much concludes that cleaner oil results in less wear. They also conclude that higher efficiency filters result in cleaner oil. How is that not a good thing? Most of these studies can be found with a Google search.

Instead of re-posting what I just did in another on-going thread, I'll post the link.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5025643/re-oil-filter-bypass#Post5025643

Originally Posted by dnewton3
I am willing to pay a slightly higher price to get a "good" filter, but I'm not willing to pay a premium price for a super-duper filter, when that top-line filter is not proven to make any distinguishable difference in wear data.


But you typically use filters that are 95% @ 20u or better ... knowing they are pretty up there in available efficiency. I've always agreed that the difference between 99% and 50% at 20u is pretty insignificant. But as seen in the PC graph in the post link above the difference between 50% and 99% at 20u is pretty significant in terms of PC level ... like about 10x difference in the amount of particles in the oil.
 
Originally Posted by dnewton3
Allow me to quote myself from years back ...

Originally Posted by dnewton3
Depending upon how often you change air filters, you can significantly alter the ingestion rate. Just as with any filter, frequent changes actually REDUCE the efficiency.


I'm not so sure that's always the case as shown with more modern testing and analysis (by Purolator/Mann+Hummel) of how an oil filter's efficiency can change as it loads up and the dealt-p increases across the media. Some media may not be very good at holding trapped particles when the delta-p starts increasing.

If you look at how the ISO 4548-12 efficiency rating is calculated, it would come out to 75% @ 20u for the filter in this example. Also realize that a filter with an ISO rating of 99% @ 20 microns based on the defined ISO efficiency calculation method would indicate that it can hold trapped particles very well because it could never achieve that high rating if it sloughed off (shed) captured particles at a high degree due to the very definition of how the ISO efficiency is calculated.

Part of the reason an oil filter has a lower ISO efficiency rating may be because of this debris sloughing off phenomenon as it loads up and the dealt-p increases. Something to think about.

Oil Filter Efficiency vs Loading Time.webp
 
I look at it this way. Generally speaking, wear is a very small number on a modern engine. Good filtration can reduce that number significantly. Reducing a small number still leaves you with a small number. Get whatever good filtration you can readily and at a decent price for your application. You just don't have to go nuts with bypass filtration just for the sake of it, though.
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by dnewton3
Allow me to quote myself from years back ...

Originally Posted by dnewton3
Depending upon how often you change air filters, you can significantly alter the ingestion rate. Just as with any filter, frequent changes actually REDUCE the efficiency.


I'm not so sure that's always the case as shown with more modern testing and analysis (by Purolator/Mann+Hummel) of how an oil filter's efficiency can change as it loads up and the dealt-p increases across the media. Some media may not be very good at holding trapped particles when the delta-p starts increasing.

If you look at how the ISO 4548-12 efficiency rating is calculated, it would come out to 75% @ 20u for the filter in this example. Also realize that a filter with an ISO rating of 99% @ 20 microns based on the defined ISO efficiency calculation method would indicate that it can hold trapped particles very well because it could never achieve that high rating if it sloughed off (shed) captured particles at a high degree due to the very definition of how the ISO efficiency is calculated.

Part of the reason an oil filter has a lower ISO efficiency rating may be because of this debris sloughing off phenomenon as it loads up and the dealt-p increases. Something to think about.



Interesting. However, I still return to this immutable truth ...
Without correlation, there can be no causation.

Just because PCs go up or down a bit with filter choices and duration of use, there's ZERO PROOF that this affects the wear rates in normal OCI applications today. An input is changing, but the output is not proven to react to it. I agree with what you state; finer filtration results in less particulate loading. But you're not hearing what I'm saying ... THAT FINER FILTRATION IN REAL WORLD USE HAS NOT PROVEN TO AFFECT WEAR RATES IN NORMAL OCIs.

Simply stated: the input you're manipulating is not affecting the output. Hence, it's not effective in the conditions of operation. (Do not construe that as to mean filters are not important; that's absurd. What I'm stating is that filters do not have the majority of control, once a threshold of sustainable efficiency is attained.)

Sure - HALTs prove that finer filtration can affect wear; that's because HALTs are purposely (grotesquely) manipulated to induce that differential. Even the GM study ADMITS this truth; they conclude that
" Used oil analysis from engines in the field will not typically show such a clear correlation since wear metals generated between oil changes will be a much lower concentrations. " (underline my emphasis)
They flat out tell us WHY we'll never see this kind of wear disparity in the real world. OIL CHANGES NEGATE THE EFFECT OF FILTRATION IN NORMAL LIFE.
Remember, the GM study essentially ran a 570k mile OCI. And then tested filters of 40um down to 7um. That seem "normal" to you?
They knew this back in 1988, and yet people today still cannot grasp this concept!

And, the "bus study" that you an I agree on, clearly shows there's correlation between PCs and wear data. Finer filtration made for less wear. But that was from decades ago, using dirty running, soot laden 2-stoke diesel engines. Today's vehicles run so clean that the nuances of filtration don't have the same effect; in fact they have essentially no effect whatsoever as long as a minimum threshold of efficiency is present. You cannot have it both ways, ZEE. You cannot claim the bus study shows good correlation of PCs to filtration (confirmed via used oil analysis wear metals) and then promptly ignore the absence of correspondence of wear metals in today's used oil analysis.

We have to quit relying on decades old filter studies as "proof" that finer is always better. So many other things have improved that filter efficiency is no longer a major topic (past that min threshold of perhaps 50% at 20um; my wag.)
- the TCB is now understood how it affects wear
- engines today do not self-pollute with soot the way the did decades ago
- oils are formulated to be much more robust; they handle contamination so much better now, and also resist oxidation to a much greater degree
- design of equipment has been refined
- manufacturing capabilities have been greatly improved

We cannot look at studies from the 1980s where horribly dirty operation and grotesque manipulation showed filters were king. We've got to realize that so many other inputs have moved past filters now. Wear rates are generally so low in today's equipment that selection of oil and filter brands based on quality of performance is essentially a fools errand, as long as the necessary minimums are attained.
 
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In my opinion, cause I am not as smart as you guys. A decades old study is interesting but how can you compare that to present engine bearing tolerance and thinner oils. The date of the study should be kept in mind.
 
Let's throw out the old GM study -

Not sure how I reconcile Noria corp and Jim Fitchs multitude of publishings on the subject that all seem to point to finer being better all things considered.

ISO tables seem to compute wear directly against cleanliness as well.

Sayles and Machpersons data is old as well - is it not relevant?



UD
 
Originally Posted by dnewton3
I agree with what you state; finer filtration results in less particulate loading. But you're not hearing what I'm saying ... THAT FINER FILTRATION IN REAL WORLD USE HAS NOT PROVEN TO AFFECT WEAR RATES IN NORMAL OCIs.


It's OK if we disagree ... but it's mainly because our viewpoints are from different angles. I'm a purist, and my logic is that there's plenty of proof from many sources from lubrication expert sources (ie, Machinery Lubrication and many studies) that cleaner oil is obtained with better filtration, and that cleaner oil will result in less wear. I have not see one source that proves cleaner oil doesn't result in less wear. I'm not interested in "how much less wear" ... I'm interested in "less wear". I don't need to see a number of how much less - even if it was 1% less I'd be fine. I just want to keep my oil as clean as possible because nobody here or anywhere in the world is going to prove that dirty oil is better than clean oil.

Originally Posted by dnewton3
And, the "bus study" that you an I agree on, clearly shows there's correlation between PCs and wear data. Finer filtration made for less wear. But that was from decades ago, using dirty running, soot laden 2-stoke diesel engines. Today's vehicles run so clean that the nuances of filtration don't have the same effect; in fact they have essentially no effect whatsoever as long as a minimum threshold of efficiency is present. You cannot have it both ways, ZEE. You cannot claim the bus study shows good correlation of PCs to filtration (confirmed via used oil analysis wear metals) and then promptly ignore the absence of correspondence of wear metals in today's used oil analysis.

We have to quit relying on decades old filter studies as "proof" that finer is always better.


Regardless of how old that Bus Study was, it still clearly shows that the higher the oil filter efficiency is, the cleaner the oil is - that fact will never change. Their old data also reflects the correlation I've found in current PCs.

And as mentioned earlier, the difference between a 99% @ 20u and 50% @ 20u filter shows to be about 10 times less particulate in the oil PC. IMO, that's pretty significant. If it makes a "real world difference" (which a pretty loose definition) or not isn't what I care about ... I only care about keeping the oil as clean as possible with a spin-on oil filter. The bottom line will always be that cleaner oil is better than dirtier oil.
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Bus Oil Filter Study (SAE Paper 902238) - Figure 1.webp


Bus Oil Filter Study (SAE Paper 902238) - Figure 2.webp
 
Originally Posted by Pinoak

Yeah it becomes a narrow list but that's fine there are wix filters for all my applications I know for sure. Motorcraft for 2. I don't even know where to get RP filters but wanna check those out too.


Royal Purple, many Amsoil and Donaldson Synteq filters all come from the same assembly line, and are considered that best (or nearly the best) of any oil filters made.... and they use a dome-end bypass.

The ONE THING you keep forgetting.... is that synthetic media flows so well,

so you really aren't going to experience a bypass event...

EVER...

unless you go full throttle on a cold engine.
 
There is no more simple way to illustrate this than to state we have to acknowledge the difference between efficiency and effectiveness.
Something can be very efficient, but not effective. Other things can be effective, but not efficient. Some things can be both. Other things can be neither.
The most important thing to understand is that efficiency and effectiveness are NOT dependent upon each other; they can exist in a mutually exclusive environment.

It's nearly time for March Madness, so let's make an example of basket-ball ....
Your favorite player might be really efficient at shooting three pointers; say 50% from behind the line. But his effect on the game depends upon TWO things; the shots taken and his accuracy.
My favorite player might be really efficient at shooting from the stripe; say 85% at the foul line. But his effect on the game depends on those same two things; how much he gets fouled and his accuracy.
If you're player takes ten 3-pt shots, his efficiency would contribute 15 points to the game. (50% of 30 potential points = 15 pts scored). But if he only takes 2 attempts all game, it's probable he'll only add 3 pts.
If my player takes only 3 attempts at the foul line, he'll only contribute (90% of 3 = 2.7) pts per game, on average. However if my guy gets to the line 10 times, he's going to contribute 9 pts.
This is all obvious, right?


The point I make is that EFFICIENT filters do not have nearly as much EFFECT today, because other things have made filtration less relevant. (Filters are not meaningless, but capture ratio is not as important as it once was.)
The GM and Bus studies only show that heavily contaminated systems can see wear improvements when vast, wide disparity exists in the filtration choices, in extended (or outright deleted) OCIs.
But those conditions are not relevant today. Again, the following things make highly-efficient filtration meaningless:
- the TCB is now understood how it affects wear
- engines today do not self-pollute with soot the way they did decades ago
- oils are formulated to be much more robust; they handle contamination so much better now, and also resist oxidation to a much greater degree
- design of equipment has been refined
- manufacturing capabilities have been greatly improved
The point is that highly efficient filtration cannot make a significant impact when other things are controlling wear with greater effect.

Filtration efficiency was important many years ago because the sumps contained large amounts of contamination, and the oils were not able to deal with that resultant contamination as well, and the equipment was not made as well. But all that has changed. Sumps are just a lot cleaner now because engines just run so much cleaner in the combustion process. Equipment is designed and manufactured much better now, so it not only wears less, but is less susceptible to what little contamination is present. And lubes have more additives to deal with what remains, and reduce the ability of things like soot to grow in size.

Your point, Zee, that there will be less particulate in the system is salient, but it's not relevant. A highly efficient filter will catch more stuff, but there's so little for a FF filter to catch in a normal OCI that the EFFECT of the EFFICIENCY is indistinguishable in real world wear rates. Any particle that is fairly large will be caught by most any decent filter. Small stuff is not caught by any normal filter. The reality is this:
Your player whom is really good at 3-pt shots is not going to win the game because he's not getting a chance to take many shots at all; other players have reduced his ability to score, because they are denying him the ball!

I agree that finer filtration makes for less particulate in the system.
I disagree that highly-efficient filtration has a major effect today.
And there are tens of thousands of used oil analysis to prove my point.
What was relevant from yesteryear is moot today.

Once a sump is "clean enough", making it "cleaner" does not necessarily make it "better", if "better" is defined as less wear. Your definition of "better" is "cleaner'. My definition of "better" is "less wear". You focus on the inputs, whereas I focus on the outputs.

This thread actually started back in 2002. A LOT of things have changed since then.

As you state, Zee, we will agree to disagree.
I'm OK with that .... no harm, no foul
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Thanks for the view... This site has a lot to offer someone searching for information. Just from a new guy perspective there is a lot of variance and that is a good thing, kinda like a buffet of good ideas to choose from. Unfortunately the really good stuff like flow rate seems to be locked up, although it is there somewhere. So... Synthetic is glass fibers and that media is more uniform than a blend with cellulose or all cellulose and that appears to be less restrictive and more uniform. But what is around the corner?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...&time_continue=176&v=AnTM02sa2LU

Bypass events... There is no on or off switch in my mind. Kinda like a pressure regulator. That guy in Russia showed the bypass working a lot in a filter. How much is bypassed is very little but a filter can will pulse when in operation. Really neat stuff to think what is around the corner. Just my view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsIhMx91xFQ&list=PL-QMU3Q8W_WOwOfvFW1xqQ5NSqFyxPUK5&index=9
 
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Originally Posted by Bill_W
Thanks for the view... This site has a lot to offer someone searching for information. Just from a new guy perspective there is a lot of variance that is a good thing, kinda like a buffet of good ideas to choose from. Unfortunately the really good stuff like flow rate seems to be locked up, although it is there somewhere. So... Synthetic is glass fibers and that media is more uniform than a blend with cellulose or all cellulose and that appears to be less restrictive and more uniform. But what is around the corner?

How is flow rate "the really good stuff"?
 
Just my view... Flow will happen. The more restrictive the filter media the more the filter will find a way around it. Take for instance a Napa Gold filter versus a Fram Ultra Synthetic. The Ultra has a differential PSI on the bypass at 12 PSI while the Gold has a 22 PSI rating. I know these are engineered calculated with the flow rate. A better flow filter would not need to bypass at 22 but at 12. Just in my mind the Ultra has a better flow rate. But that is just my view.
 
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