Thanks Wayne! That would answer the ultimate question: Does the sloppy assembly quality noted actually have an adverse impact on filter function and durability? I suspect the answer is no, but it will certainly be nice to have some hard evidence to support such a conclusion. (But it's still nice to see how neatly assembled Wix/NAPA Gold filters are when dissected--it imparts a sense of high quality and craftsmanship!)
Disappointed with Mobil 1 Filter (Cut Open)
- Thread starter Strjock81
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Here are the only two pictures I could find of the M1-205 that I cut open. Again, the construction of this M1 filter was top-shelf. I felt like I got my $10 worth of filter.
The only down side to the Mobil 1 filter...
the super tiny Mobil 1 filters costs just as much as the gigantic M1-205 filter that Wayne cut apart.
I have a M-104 that i will cut open after I use it and post pictures.
the super tiny Mobil 1 filters costs just as much as the gigantic M1-205 filter that Wayne cut apart.
I have a M-104 that i will cut open after I use it and post pictures.
The reason costs don't change just because a filter is "smaller" when it's Mobil 1..
There is a production line change of equipment whether it be Mobil larger filters or smaller. Due to the thicker shell and thicker backplate assembly. It takes different equipment to seam the can. The line changeover is added to the cost based on production time "run"...for small and large cans.
People focus on -- it must be cheaper because it's smaller and uses slightly less metal--but that differential is pennies.
So instead of $10.99, if smaller filters were $10.89 you'd be happier?
The retail price is set by the store. They can charge what they want. And they can change pricing on smaller filters..but they don't.
Same is true of any brand.
The only variable is volume. Which is why a particular filter may be more expensive than others.
There is a production line change of equipment whether it be Mobil larger filters or smaller. Due to the thicker shell and thicker backplate assembly. It takes different equipment to seam the can. The line changeover is added to the cost based on production time "run"...for small and large cans.
People focus on -- it must be cheaper because it's smaller and uses slightly less metal--but that differential is pennies.
So instead of $10.99, if smaller filters were $10.89 you'd be happier?
The retail price is set by the store. They can charge what they want. And they can change pricing on smaller filters..but they don't.
Same is true of any brand.
The only variable is volume. Which is why a particular filter may be more expensive than others.
XS650, What are you doing on the discovery channel?
"Cartridge oil filters......The wave of the future!"
A lingering dinosaur from the past, sold as "new" technology to a gullible consumer. Great promoting, they charge you more for less, and we buy it..
P.B. (A good spin-on rules !!)
A lingering dinosaur from the past, sold as "new" technology to a gullible consumer. Great promoting, they charge you more for less, and we buy it..
P.B. (A good spin-on rules !!)
Though I like the idea of the cartridge filters, I too have found that the cartridge (basically just the filter media, fiber end-plates, and 2 o-rings for the housing) is considerably more expensive than a 'complete' spin-on filter in its own housing. That and the unholy mess it makes do not make me happy.
If its the BMW style cartridge filter/housing...
then better than sliced bread. Most spin-ons make a big mess when you remove them, no matter how slowly you remove them.
then better than sliced bread. Most spin-ons make a big mess when you remove them, no matter how slowly you remove them.
**** and nonsense from you for about the tenth time. I never saw any spin on as neat and easy as the cartridge on my Ecotec. One more time, try looking at a modern cartridge. They are nothing like the pins of the 50's.quote:
Originally posted by Papa Bear:
"Cartridge oil filters......The wave of the future!"
A lingering dinosaur from the past, sold as "new" technology to a gullible consumer. Great promoting, they charge you more for less, and we buy it..
P.B. (A good spin-on rules !!)
I have a "grey can" Mobil 1 filter off my 2001.5 Cummins waiting to be opened, I'll try to get pic's up over the weekend..
This has been helpful. I cut open an old white can "Champ" filter. It actually says champ on it. I couldn't figure out why it look all twisted, my best theory was the core was a little to long and out of spec and it got compressed when they seemed or welded the can. Should be interesting got 11 more of these white can champs to use and cut open. These filters sure do work, should have seen the first one I cut open after I changed the intake gaskets.
I'm running a Mobil 1 filter on my Buick PA, but it is not the recommended filter that you find when you search for filters in the books. What it calls for on a 1996 Buick Park Avenue for the 3.8 l motor is the 3387A style of filter or would be the K&N HP-1001, or Mobil M1-101 ... that is the standard what you find. WHAT I run is the longer filter the Mobil M1-201 (aka Fram PH 3980, Motorcraft FL402, etc) Same size center threads, same size oil ring gasket, but just a longer filter. Takes full 5 qts for an oil change as compared to 4.5 qts for the normal 3387A filter.
Now, I work as the Associate Winemaker at a local winery. We use 40cm X 40cm depth filter pads in a plate & frame style filter. All wine passes through the filter, and even though we may use 20 of the filter "pads" in the filter housing, it does not mean that the wine goes through 20 filter pads, just through 1 pad but 20X the surface area. When we need to filter either particularly large batches of wine and/or wine that is not as clear we use more pads. The reason is because we keep flow minimal so not to through too much through the filter during the wine's pass though. Depth filters are kind of like a beaver dam of sticks, branches, etc all intertwined. Particles get in there and get "hung up" on on the filter media. Too much flow and you can force the piece of matter right on through a filter media and degrade the job it's supposed to do. When we use filter pads in the 1 to 5 micron range, we can effectively stop things that are as small as 5 microns and nearly 100% of the 1 micron stuff. If we flow too fast we risk blowing not only more of the 1 micron stuff through, but we will start seeing more of the 5 micron and larger particles actually letting go and making their way through the filter media.
BUT, once a filter pad is loaded up, (ie filled with solids) it now becomes a filter pad that is doing nothing. No wine moves through, or very little and you cannot just increase the pump pressure or you risk blow by. So we back flush the filter media with hot water, and once "recharged or cleaned" so to speak we can once again continue on with filtering.
We have an advantage that oil filters on vehicles don't have. One is the size of the depths of the filter media. Ours are around 3/8" on each filter pad. Oil filter media is considerably smaller in depth (thickness) than this. Plus, we have flow meters on the wine going out and pressure gages one the wine coming in to the filter and on the back side going out. Differential pressure and flow rate give us an indication of what is happening in a filtering job, and we can adjust accordingly.
With oil filters, it looks like there is a fine line between good tight filtration and keeping most of the stuff out of the engine, vs looser pore on the filter media that allows longer life and less chance of filter plugging up. I may be all wet on this one, but it looks like that once a filter does become plugged it is nothing more than a cylindrical can covering an opening in the flow of the oil to the engine, with little/no filtering going on at all.
Vern
Now, I work as the Associate Winemaker at a local winery. We use 40cm X 40cm depth filter pads in a plate & frame style filter. All wine passes through the filter, and even though we may use 20 of the filter "pads" in the filter housing, it does not mean that the wine goes through 20 filter pads, just through 1 pad but 20X the surface area. When we need to filter either particularly large batches of wine and/or wine that is not as clear we use more pads. The reason is because we keep flow minimal so not to through too much through the filter during the wine's pass though. Depth filters are kind of like a beaver dam of sticks, branches, etc all intertwined. Particles get in there and get "hung up" on on the filter media. Too much flow and you can force the piece of matter right on through a filter media and degrade the job it's supposed to do. When we use filter pads in the 1 to 5 micron range, we can effectively stop things that are as small as 5 microns and nearly 100% of the 1 micron stuff. If we flow too fast we risk blowing not only more of the 1 micron stuff through, but we will start seeing more of the 5 micron and larger particles actually letting go and making their way through the filter media.
BUT, once a filter pad is loaded up, (ie filled with solids) it now becomes a filter pad that is doing nothing. No wine moves through, or very little and you cannot just increase the pump pressure or you risk blow by. So we back flush the filter media with hot water, and once "recharged or cleaned" so to speak we can once again continue on with filtering.
We have an advantage that oil filters on vehicles don't have. One is the size of the depths of the filter media. Ours are around 3/8" on each filter pad. Oil filter media is considerably smaller in depth (thickness) than this. Plus, we have flow meters on the wine going out and pressure gages one the wine coming in to the filter and on the back side going out. Differential pressure and flow rate give us an indication of what is happening in a filtering job, and we can adjust accordingly.
With oil filters, it looks like there is a fine line between good tight filtration and keeping most of the stuff out of the engine, vs looser pore on the filter media that allows longer life and less chance of filter plugging up. I may be all wet on this one, but it looks like that once a filter does become plugged it is nothing more than a cylindrical can covering an opening in the flow of the oil to the engine, with little/no filtering going on at all.
Vern
I've been very impressed with the overall construction of the Champ Labs filters I've dissected, including the M1. Here is a pic of the internals of the one that fit my last car (M1-110 size):
I've cut up several used ones, and seen not the first indication of failure. Ditto on the K&N.
I've cut up several used ones, and seen not the first indication of failure. Ditto on the K&N.
Anyone ever cut open a Baldwin filter? or have thoughts on them?
Alas, Baldwin is one of the very few I haven't dissected. That said, they enjoy a good rep here amongst those who've used them. I can't speak from personal experience, as I've never used one. Again, from what other members have reported, I wouldn't hesitate to try one.
My take is that the more expensive the filter, the less likely people are to cut them open and compare media area to other brands. If as some claim, the Baldwin is the same as the Hastings, I am not impressed. I cut a Hastings apart and found it mid pack among filters costing less than I paid for it.
In another thread, Filter Guy is strongly pushing the idea media quality making up for quanity. I can say Hastings is mid pack on media area. I can't say it is better or worse than other filters or the same as a Baldwin. For now, I am buying Super Tech as long as Wally's still sells them.
In another thread, Filter Guy is strongly pushing the idea media quality making up for quanity. I can say Hastings is mid pack on media area. I can't say it is better or worse than other filters or the same as a Baldwin. For now, I am buying Super Tech as long as Wally's still sells them.
All the M1 filters I've dissected in the past had the appearance of very high quality. However, it's been some time. With outsourcing and the current corporate cost cutting model of doing business these days, who knows what's been compromised today. Even underwear wears out twice as fast as stuff you use to buy 10 years ago.
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