Hominid7, read this and contemplate. This many people can't be dreaming.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/gm_dexcool.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/gm_dexcool.html
Dex-Cool clones
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Jeez, Rob-Newb, take a chill, Homms meant no malice. And YOU are a tad off base in any case. DexCool is a dandy coolant in a well maintained cooling system. I ran DexCool fill for a couple of years and 65,000 miles at a time and the radiator was good as new inside and out, the waterpumps they changed at timing belt time were always like new without the slightest pitting from cavitation or corrosion. Hoses, puke-tank, cap everything like new for 9 years and 288,000 miles, 220K of that on DexCool. LOTS of peeps use the DexCool because there's NO silicate in it. There are good and sound reasons that the DexCool is a great coolant. Search out RayH, he's using it for three years (DexCool clone from WallyWorld) in the desert through hard driving cycles. Guess what? No troubles. What's my last car, exclusively run on DexCool, and Ray's car, also on DexCool, have in common? We maintain our cooling systems. Check the tank, catch trouble early. DexCool hates air, so what to do? Maintain a healthy cooling system, it's easy. A few models for a limited time used some plastic components that allowed air into the system, and again, people didn't notice because they don't LOOK under the hood. That isn't DexCool's fault.
Spare us also the argument you make knocking DexCool by saying lawyers are suing GM over DexCool. THOSE kinds of lawyers sue over rain on their tee-time, you kidding me? What kind of argument is THAT?
You need to take that mean old attitude and your NINE posts over to the search function and READ, Rob, and I mean no offense. But you're really making a quite clueless case. There are many very real benefits to the Organic Acid Tech coolants, chief amongst them, no high levels of silicate. And there are many, many folks that use DexCool throughout the life of the car and never have a problem. Allow air into the system, allow the level to go down, fail to maintain your cooling system and I don't care what coolant you're using, you're asking for trouble. You may get it in a different form, but you will get trouble. Who cares what coolant it is if you aren't going to maintain it anyway?
RapidRob
Does that mean that Prestone "All Makes All Models" is junk too? Except for the color, it is Dexcool, as is many other current green coolants.
Gasket problems with GM products were just that, gasket problems, not coolant problems.
Gee, I wonder if Ford, Chrysler, and Mercedes are suddenly gong to start having problems too. Their current coolant brew is Dexcool with a light dose of silicate. And how about Honda, Nissan, and Toyota. Their current stuff is Dexcool with a dose of phosphate.
Does that mean that Prestone "All Makes All Models" is junk too? Except for the color, it is Dexcool, as is many other current green coolants.
Gasket problems with GM products were just that, gasket problems, not coolant problems.
Gee, I wonder if Ford, Chrysler, and Mercedes are suddenly gong to start having problems too. Their current coolant brew is Dexcool with a light dose of silicate. And how about Honda, Nissan, and Toyota. Their current stuff is Dexcool with a dose of phosphate.
Big Jim, it's not Dexcool, it the organic acid, 2EHA. Its a plasticizer, and has been shown in scientific studies to damage plastic parts and head gaskets, especially if in contact with air (air in cooling system) As long as a "long-life" antifreeze doesn't contain 2EHA (like G-05) then I think they are fine. This is too much circumstancial evidence against Dexcool (with 2EHA) Many companies have taken this organic acid out of their formulations for this very reason. Mark my prediction--Dexcool will eventually remove 2EHA also, there too many other organic acids that do just as good of job without the problems
Big Jim, read this:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-forum/t-94332.html
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-forum/t-94332.html
I'm sure this have been posted, but notice it states that G-05 doesn't contain 2EHA!
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us120426.htm
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us120426.htm
One more time guys: G-05 uses the BASF organic acid called Glystantin and is a single organic acid antifreeze with a dash of phosphate and silicate for immediate protection and NO 2EHA!!!!! Hello......... anyone home??
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/G05-Glysantin.htm
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/G05-Glysantin.htm
Again, another article "****ing" 2-EHA. Sorry, but you asked for it!!
http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/082004_04.html
http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/082004_04.html
Can you show us those scientific studies?
I suppose. I'm convinced the Hyundai factory used a high-silicate coolant in my 2005 that I purchased in 2-2006. The puke-tank was slime-green with the obligatory snotty silicate coming out of solution. The process was well underway, ans the car was built late-2004 and sat unpurchased for a year and 3 or 4 months. Only had 15 miles on it when I test drove it. The change to G-05 at 600 miles was a useful move, there was a lot of junk in addition to the snotty-stuff. Silicate out of solution is a weird thing to see in what should be clean and clear coolant, whatever the color.
When I saw that, after nearly ten years of trouble-free DexCool usage, I'd have happily gone back to DexCool if there was no G-05. And, I'd use it with confidence (with a thorough, distilled-water flush) to this day. The flaws of DexCool come out in vehicles that are poorly maintained or have other corruptive mechanical issues that would wreck any coolant. DexCool's issues do not appear overnight, they are cultivated over months/years of inattention. If there are slobs (as opposed to SLOB
), that refuse to maintain a perfectly good vehicle, I refuse to see how DexCool is Hagar the Horrible in those instances. This 100,00-mile spark plug, and 150,000 mile coolant change interval should give pause to anyone with any mechanical sense. Those lacking in that department have to answer to Darwin.
When I saw that, after nearly ten years of trouble-free DexCool usage, I'd have happily gone back to DexCool if there was no G-05. And, I'd use it with confidence (with a thorough, distilled-water flush) to this day. The flaws of DexCool come out in vehicles that are poorly maintained or have other corruptive mechanical issues that would wreck any coolant. DexCool's issues do not appear overnight, they are cultivated over months/years of inattention. If there are slobs (as opposed to SLOB
), that refuse to maintain a perfectly good vehicle, I refuse to see how DexCool is Hagar the Horrible in those instances. This 100,00-mile spark plug, and 150,000 mile coolant change interval should give pause to anyone with any mechanical sense. Those lacking in that department have to answer to Darwin.Big Jim, I just posted an article that said that MB, Chrysler, Volkswagon, and Ford studied Dexcool and concluded that the organic acid 2-EHA caused problems with plastic intake manifolds and they decided to use G-05 instead. Didn't you even read the articles or did they conflict with your personal, preconcieved notions? I don't know why I waste my time trying to convince you all, you're going to believe what you want to believe. Welcome to the "Flat-Earth" society. "Here's your sign."
I read the articles. Those are hardly scientific studies.
I guess part of why I can't relate is that Dexcool works great in the cars I've installed it in.
Also, plastic water pump impellers don't need Dexcool to be a problem. Ask any 95-97 Contour V6 owner. Maybe in your mind Ford used green Dexcool in those cars.
And again, Dexcool wasn't involved with the Ford 4.6 V8 that kept blowing plastic intake mainfolds in the coolant passages. Maybe Texaco shipped green Dexcool to the Ford plants?
Still again, Dexcool wasn't involved with the Taurus 96 and 97 3.0 Vulcan engine that turned green coolant into a brown rusty mess sometimes in less than 12,000 miles.
General Motors has had their cooling system problems, but that doesn't mean that they were all caused by Dexcool.
I guess part of why I can't relate is that Dexcool works great in the cars I've installed it in.
Also, plastic water pump impellers don't need Dexcool to be a problem. Ask any 95-97 Contour V6 owner. Maybe in your mind Ford used green Dexcool in those cars.
And again, Dexcool wasn't involved with the Ford 4.6 V8 that kept blowing plastic intake mainfolds in the coolant passages. Maybe Texaco shipped green Dexcool to the Ford plants?
Still again, Dexcool wasn't involved with the Taurus 96 and 97 3.0 Vulcan engine that turned green coolant into a brown rusty mess sometimes in less than 12,000 miles.
General Motors has had their cooling system problems, but that doesn't mean that they were all caused by Dexcool.
Most newbes come here to learn, rather than to teach. Perhaps if you didn't jump in with your own agenda before becoming aware of the depth of knowlede here you wouldn't feel like you're pounding your head against the wall.
If you go to the U.S. Patent Office a cursory search reveals approx 12-16 patents for coolant additive packages intended for automotive/light truck consumption ( Non SCA ) that ( if you look elsewhere ) appear to be in production . Some of these Patents cover multiple combinations of chemical additives . Some cover " ranges " of INDIVIDUAL chemical concentrations within the package .
Take all these Patent numbers and cross reference them across product lines . Sometimes you will have to e-mail or pickup the phone to do this .
Once you do - and get a feel for the chemistries involved
you can usefully divide the choices out there into 3 or 4 major categories and then subcategories within . Arbitrarily , tonite I chose 3 . And also arbitrarily to keep this post short and of more practical use I'm going to " cross it up " a bit and also use completely arbitrary terminology . I'm also going to go from memory so I MAY GET SOME OF THIS WRONG .
Well .... d***** I'm tired and I don't remember enough to not mix it up so here is a rough outline .
1 )OATS
a ) DEXCOOL
b ) 1ST GENERATION DEXCOOL CLONES
c ) 2nd/3rd GENERATION ??? ADVANCED ??? OAT/DEXCOOL ALTERNATIVES
2 )HOATS -pretty much the same logic except substitute GA-O5
for DEXCOOL AND HOAT for OAT .
3 )CONVENTIONAL/CONVENTIONAL SUBSTITUTE .
Strangely enough this is the craziest group to try and understand - its about that substitute bit . This group actually seems to need sub - sub groupings and this is where I'm hazy at the moment .
Well anyway , there are your " conventional "- conventionals and then there are two - three maybe four subgroupings of conventional substitutes .
Some of these in a crude sense seem to be a very different type of HOAT ( HOAT T2 ??? ) and some seem to be well , something altogether different than all the rest above .
( In the States these are typically seen as the long life greens - also typically with a 5Yr/100K kind of schedule .) One of the weird things about them is that although they are marketed as a CONVENTIONAL green substitute ( only ) two of the bigger sellers contain less silica/silicate than GA-O5 .
If I'm remembering a couple of applications correctly at least one of these seems to create what can crudely be described as a sort of clear - slightly dirty plasticy film .
Take all these Patent numbers and cross reference them across product lines . Sometimes you will have to e-mail or pickup the phone to do this .
Once you do - and get a feel for the chemistries involved
Well .... d***** I'm tired and I don't remember enough to not mix it up so here is a rough outline .
1 )OATS
a ) DEXCOOL
b ) 1ST GENERATION DEXCOOL CLONES
c ) 2nd/3rd GENERATION ??? ADVANCED ??? OAT/DEXCOOL ALTERNATIVES
2 )HOATS -pretty much the same logic except substitute GA-O5
for DEXCOOL AND HOAT for OAT .
3 )CONVENTIONAL/CONVENTIONAL SUBSTITUTE .
Strangely enough this is the craziest group to try and understand - its about that substitute bit . This group actually seems to need sub - sub groupings and this is where I'm hazy at the moment .
Well anyway , there are your " conventional "- conventionals and then there are two - three maybe four subgroupings of conventional substitutes .
Some of these in a crude sense seem to be a very different type of HOAT ( HOAT T2 ??? ) and some seem to be well , something altogether different than all the rest above .
If I'm remembering a couple of applications correctly at least one of these seems to create what can crudely be described as a sort of clear - slightly dirty plasticy film .
For what it's worth: Not all green antifreeze is "high silicate" stuff. Green low silicate antifreeze with what most companys call "SCA" is run in lots of diesel and industrial engines. You can test the additive levels with these little test strips- forgive the spelling (don't feel like walking out to the shed), but the strips test for nitrate and molybdmate. The SCA additives not only prevent corrosion, but also prevent cavitation (sorta like corrosion on crack- involving cylinder liners and blocks in bigass diesels). This low-silicate green stuff has worked great in all my vehicles. The only time I've ever seen a problem from it is when it's left in for years and the additive level gets low.
Here's another wierd bit of info. Somebody mentioned a while back on one of these boards some issues with dexcool and brass radiators. I worked on a Volvo road tractor the other day- about a 1999 or 2000 model by the look of it. Here's where it gets wierd: First, it had a brass radiator with plastic tanks (don't know that I've seen that before). Second, it was factory filled (complete with sticker) with "Rotella extended life coolant". The stuff was red/orange, so I ASSUME it was either OAT or Hoat and not dissimilar to dexcool.
Here's another wierd bit of info. Somebody mentioned a while back on one of these boards some issues with dexcool and brass radiators. I worked on a Volvo road tractor the other day- about a 1999 or 2000 model by the look of it. Here's where it gets wierd: First, it had a brass radiator with plastic tanks (don't know that I've seen that before). Second, it was factory filled (complete with sticker) with "Rotella extended life coolant". The stuff was red/orange, so I ASSUME it was either OAT or Hoat and not dissimilar to dexcool.
Big Jim:
Let's get something straight here:
1. Just because I just started posting here doesn't make me an idiot. I have a Masters degree in Biochemistry and teach AP Biology in high schools.
2. Just because you haven't had trouble with Dexcool doesn't mean it doesn't have a problem -- maybe you have been lucky?
3. If Ford, MB, Chysler, and VW have rejected Dexcool (2EHA) then I think you could trust their engineers, but maybe because you have posted many times here, you percieve yourself to be more intellegent?
4. Maybe you can learn from less posting and more research!!
5. Don't take what I (or others) say, do your own investigation. "Where there is smoke, there is probably a fire." Meaning the numerous complaints about Dexcool have some basis. GM doesn't want a massive recall ( and more lawsuits) and will deny problems for as long as they are able. If they change Dexcool, they will be admitting a problem existed, so they must keep using it and don't dare change it.
Let's get something straight here:
1. Just because I just started posting here doesn't make me an idiot. I have a Masters degree in Biochemistry and teach AP Biology in high schools.
2. Just because you haven't had trouble with Dexcool doesn't mean it doesn't have a problem -- maybe you have been lucky?
3. If Ford, MB, Chysler, and VW have rejected Dexcool (2EHA) then I think you could trust their engineers, but maybe because you have posted many times here, you percieve yourself to be more intellegent?
4. Maybe you can learn from less posting and more research!!
5. Don't take what I (or others) say, do your own investigation. "Where there is smoke, there is probably a fire." Meaning the numerous complaints about Dexcool have some basis. GM doesn't want a massive recall ( and more lawsuits) and will deny problems for as long as they are able. If they change Dexcool, they will be admitting a problem existed, so they must keep using it and don't dare change it.
Big Jim: One more thing, check all the GM service bulletins concerning Dexcool and the procedures to alleviate the problems compared to the use of traditional North American "green" antifreeze and it makes you wonder what was gained by the use of Dexcool. You have to ensure no air gets in the system, change it every 3YRS or 50k miles (not 150k miles and 5yrs any more) and you have to wonder what the advantage is. You have much more maintenance and worry and no advantage. It doesn't protect any better, it doesn't really last longer and it costs more? See the logical conclusion?
from what i've read, G05 will work in the
2001 F150 5.4L
2001 Civic
2000 Dodge intrepid
???
or am i now confused?
2001 F150 5.4L
2001 Civic
2000 Dodge intrepid
???
or am i now confused?
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