Defender Ammunition

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Originally Posted by hatt

Yes. I trust my reloads 100%. I can see/control every process.

I saw huge red flags with their brass return option. Are they sorting headstamps? No idea how many times the brass has been loaded. Etc. Their reloaded stuff is range ammo only.



I would agree that ANY reloaded/remanufactured ammo is for range use only. Even yours.
 
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Brigadier
And their ammo is not reloaded. It is new or remanufactured.
How do you define those two words as it relates to ammunition?
They explain it on their site. Maybe check it out?
Just did--aside from either roll sizing or pushing through a body die, the process is the same--so they can label it as "remanufactured", but it meets the label of "reloaded"--especially since they are using brass that may be returned with an unknown number of firings and they do not state that headstamps are sorted. I have been reloading since the late 1980's and have never had a problem with sizing brass with standard dies, but I do have some special dies for my belted magnums. With that said, I would not use my own ammunition as EDC and trusting my reloads has nothing to do with it.
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Brigadier
And their ammo is not reloaded. It is new or remanufactured.
How do you define those two words as it relates to ammunition?
They explain it on their site. Maybe check it out?
Just did--aside from either roll sizing or pushing through a body die, the process is the same--so they can label it as "remanufactured", but it meets the label of "reloaded"--especially since they are using brass that may be returned with an unknown number of firings and they do not state that headstamps are sorted. I have been reloading since the late 1980's and have never had a problem with sizing brass with standard dies, but I do have some special dies for my belted magnums. With that said, I would not use my own ammunition as EDC and trusting my reloads has nothing to do with it.


Please show me where I said to use reloaded or remanufactured ammo for carry. BTW, they do make NEW ammo as well.....
confused2.gif
 
In a couple of books, Massad Ayoob makes a great case for the use of factory ammo, only.

First, is the shyster prosecutor (and they ARE out there) can clearly criticize the hand-loader with the "he intended to murder and made up special bullets to do it!" and while that's always a concern, that's not the biggest worry.

Here's the worrisome one:

Mas testified in a case where a woman had committed suicide, using her husband's revolver. He had reduced recoil handloads in it for her.

Because of the lower powder charge, there was no forensic evidence that the revolver was close to her head. There was no significant gun shot residue (GSR) on her skin.

The defense attorney argued that the lab should test the defendant's handloads. The prosecutor argued that he could've loaded those after the fact, and thus, contrived to deceive the lab. The lab tested the pistol with factory loads, and showed that there should be significant GSR on the victim if it was a suicide (close range) as the defense claimed.

The jury concluded, based on that evidence, that it could not have been suicide. The victim must have been shot by another person, at longer range, which is the only explanation for the low GSR.

Clearly, the defendant was guilty.

And they sent him to jail for murder.
 
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by hatt

Yes. I trust my reloads 100%. I can see/control every process.

I saw huge red flags with their brass return option. Are they sorting headstamps? No idea how many times the brass has been loaded. Etc. Their reloaded stuff is range ammo only.



I would agree that ANY reloaded/remanufactured ammo is for range use only. Even yours.

Why? If Defender properly vets brass to be only once fired of the same headstamp(think police ranges) and properly processed, their "remanufactured" ammo would be of similar quality as their new brass loads.

As for my handloads. I wouldn't expect you to use them nor would I offer them up.
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
In a couple of books, Massad Ayoob makes a great case for the use of factory ammo, only.

First, is the shyster prosecutor (and they ARE out there) can clearly criticize the hand-loader with the "he intended to murder and made up special bullets to do it!" and while that's always a concern, that's not the biggest worry.

Here's the worrisome one:

Mas testified in a case where a woman had committed suicide, using her husband's revolver. He had reduced recoil handloads in it for her.

Because of the lower powder charge, there was no forensic evidence that the revolver was close to her head. There was no significant gun shot residue (GSR) on her skin.

The defense attorney argued that the lab should test the defendant's handloads. The prosecutor argued that he could've loaded those after the fact, and thus, contrived to deceive the lab. The lab tested the pistol with factory loads, and showed that there should be significant GSR on the victim if it was a suicide (close range) as the defense claimed.

The jury concluded, based on that evidence, that it could not have been suicide. The victim must have been shot by another person, at longer range, which is the only explanation for the low GSR.

Clearly, the defendant was guilty.

And they sent him to jail for murder.

I've always thought that story to be baloney. It's telling that's the leading, maybe only, story against carrying handloads. Carrying handloads is a non issue assuming you know what you're doing and can make very reliable ammo. You can what if all day. Do that long enough and you'll just decide not to carry.
 
In the case: New Jersey v. Daniel Bias, he (Massad Ayoob) was a witness for the defense and the defense lost.

So, it's a true story. You can look up the case. I read about it in:

Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry, 1st edition, 2008, ASIN: B0054KOLFQ if you would like to buy the book and read the more detailed discussion there.

No "what if" needed in response to this.

Just buy and carry factory ammo for self defense.

There are so many good choices for factory ammo these days. Speer, Federal, Cor-Bon. Lots of excellent rounds from which to choose.

Handload for hunting, target shooting, competition, whatever, but carry factory ammo for self defense.
 
I know the "story" is real. I just don't believe the story that was presented. Where is the independent testing showing this is possible?
 
Originally Posted by hatt
I know the "story" is real. I just don't believe the story that was presented. Where is the independent testing showing this is possible?

From Ayoob's account on another forum:

Quote
NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6" S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30", and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50" or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24". Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor's office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.
It would be quite a feat to fire a 6" revolver with the muzzle 2 feet from your own head. I just tried it myself. I didn't have a 6 inch 686 so I used a 4 inch M19. Using my thumb through the trigger guard I was able to get the muzzle approximately 2 ft away. That's with a 2 inch shorter barrel and gorilla arms, 39/40" shirt sleeves.
 
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Originally Posted by Brigadier
Please show me where I said to use reloaded or remanufactured ammo for carry. BTW, they do make NEW ammo as well.....
confused2.gif

I never said that YOU said to use reloaded or remanufactured ammunition for carry. I stated that I would not based the fact the Defender sells it. Yes, I know they make new ammunition (it is on the same page), but they offer nothing that would move me away from major manufacturer's offerings--which, for clarity, is my opinion, not yours.
 
Quote
According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor's office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.


No gun powder residue tests on hands back in those days? Sounds like a Mickey Mouse investigation and a kangaroo court.
 
This is not my wheelhouse, but as a layman, I would think if there was enough powder to push the bullet out of the barrel, there would be stippling on the woman if she was holding the gun. Just sayin'.
 
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