Data logging regular vs. premium

Last evening I did a fill up of 91 E0 for the 4th tank in a row in the Maverick Hybrid. My results were the best yet. 2/3 city 1/3 hiway in the 55-70 mph range. 49.4 MPG. It was a 1/2 tank short fill due to upcoming trip. The fillup was at the same pump, set on low flow to first click. 23¢ added to get to nearest quarter dollar amount.

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Do I think premium helps. Yes, but I think the E0 is most of my approx 12% gain in mileage. Yes, I haven't had my coffee yet. Maybe constant use of premium is slowly reprogramming the ECU for better efficiency, or a dozen other possibilities that exist. Just presenting my 2¢ worth of verified results of switching to higher octane.
 
Fuels used were Costco 87 and Costco 93. These would be calculated as R+M/2, not RON or MON.

The 87 and 89 on the logs is manifold vacuum as measured by the MAP sensor in kPa.
Thanks! Sorry for the confusion. I couldn't find the octanes used in the text unless I just missed it.
 
I use 91 premium ethanol free in both the Sonata 2.4L DI and the 2.4L Forte non DI.

Both vehicles will surpass the EPA rated miles on highway and city. Sonata will will cruse at around 37 mpg on highway at 60 and the Forte 6mt over 39 mpg at 60 in 6th.

Low end torque is noticeably more responsive as in less throttle is needed for acceleration also wot pulls way harder on 91 E-0 vs E10 87 on the H/K 2.4L

City mileage on both H/K is mid to higher 20's on average.

Average for both 2.4l's is over 30 mpg in day to day.

After owning these 2.4 L for many years now I really believe they were tuned to run 91 plus premium and then de-tune to run 87.

87 makes the 2.4L "sluggish"

This is purely first hand experience on a H/K 2.4L and not all engines will respond the same way.
 
Thanks for the info, I may have to try this next summer when we tow our camper. I don't have a data logger but could see if the mpgs change in the Expedition.
 
It'd be interesting to see an E15 88 octane graph. I've heard claims it does better than E10 89 due to the higher alcohol content.
 
I mean this is only a 2 second snippet of the entire trip. It's but a glimpse.
But it should not be a surprise here, higher octane resists pre-detonation, your data log shows that.

However, what is the benefit here? It's quite clear the engine and the ECU can clearly adjust the timing to deal with the knock. Temperatures look the same, I presume the MPG was similar too, so in reality having that little bit of knock or not doesn't make any difference.
 
I mean this is only a 2 second snippet of the entire trip. It's but a glimpse.
But it should not be a surprise here, higher octane resists pre-detonation, your data log shows that.

However, what is the benefit here? It's quite clear the engine and the ECU can clearly adjust the timing to deal with the knock. Temperatures look the same, I presume the MPG was similar too, so in reality having that little bit of knock or not doesn't make any difference.

In this case it's smoother performance in a daily driving scenario since the ECU doesn't have to pull timing so often. In other cases with hi-po cars (for example the Evo), the ecu will retard the timing. 91 Oct will pull ~3° of timing compared to 93oct. Going down to 87oct will pull around 10° of timing. However, the car will still work and drive with lower Oct fuel but at a cost of smooth drivability and lower power.
 
It's quite clear the engine and the ECU can clearly adjust the timing to deal with the knock. Temperatures look the same, I presume the MPG was similar too, so in reality having that little bit of knock or not doesn't make any difference.
Here's the bigger question: is knock detection always turned on, or only under circumstances where the OEM feels detonation is most likely to affect intended engine durability?
 
I have 2 MB 3.5 V6's that require a minimum octane of 91. Normally I use 93 oct from Costco. When the price of 93 gets above $4/gal, I will fill with reg 87 every other fill. Usually it's around 1/2 tank. I figure it's around 90 oct with half 93 and half 87. Vehicles run fine.
 
I mean this is only a 2 second snippet of the entire trip. It's but a glimpse.
But it should not be a surprise here, higher octane resists pre-detonation, your data log shows that.

However, what is the benefit here? It's quite clear the engine and the ECU can clearly adjust the timing to deal with the knock. Temperatures look the same, I presume the MPG was similar too, so in reality having that little bit of knock or not doesn't make any difference.

These are both two minute samples:
14:09-14:11 (2:09-2:11 PM) and 17:33-17:35 (5:33-5:35 PM)

As I noted in my initial post, drivability is noticeably better with the higher octane fuel. 4-5 degrees of KR is easily noticeable when it occurs.
 
I should try logging this with my truck, Ram “recommends” 89 but states 87 is “acceptable” for the 5.7. Butt dyno says 89 “feels” better, less sluggish.
Yes, my dad's similar 5.7 Ram seems to keep the timing very conservative at mid throttle at lower rpms with 87, and then as the revs build it really takes off! Seems funny as it has the most similar powerband to an old vtec civic, of any car I drive! It does still hold the 4 cyl mode pretty well still.
I've recommended he tow with 89 or better but I doubt he does.
 
Yes, my dad's similar 5.7 Ram seems to keep the timing very conservative at mid throttle at lower rpms with 87, and then as the revs build it really takes off! Seems funny as it has the most similar powerband to an old vtec civic, of any car I drive! It does still hold the 4 cyl mode pretty well still.
I've recommended he tow with 89 or better but I doubt he does.
This is the perfect example and exactly what mine also feels like! Mid throttle under ~3,000rpm, then it’ll take off as it seemingly “wakes” back up. I did watch it pull over 10 degrees on 87 once, but my scan tool doesn’t update the fastest.

I do disable MDS though… the 10 ply tires made it so it seemed incredibly unhappy in mds above about 50, it like “hunts” for it constantly cycling in and out.
 
Always lots of chatter about regular fuel versus premium and whether it makes a difference. The consensus usually lands somewhere between, "If the manufacturer doesn't recommend it, you're wasting your money," and "Modern engines have knocks sensors and will adjust timing accordingly, so you won't hurt anything." A link to Consumer Reports or Edmunds is usually thrown in there sometime too.

I decided to data log knock retard and get receipts.

The setup for this is my 2020 Chevrolet Silverado, 5.3L V8, 8-speed trans, and ~23k miles. Notably, GM only recommends premium for the 6.2L, not the 5.3L. Both examples I'm sharing were logged while towing my 5,500 lb. travel trailer, so the truck was certainly doing some work. Both logs were taken on the same stretch of 55mph two-lane road in similar ambient conditions. In the screen shots, knock retard is the graph with the single red trace.

Regular
View attachment 123151

In the regular fuel log, you can see the saw-tooth knock retard pattern. The ECM responds to knock by retarding timing (~3-5 degrees in most instances), the knock abates, the ECM reduces the knock retard, the knock returns, the ECM adds knock retard, and so on.

Premium
View attachment 123152

Again, same road and similar ambient conditions. This trace is much different than the previous. Knock is largely absent with premium and what few blips do occur are easily corrected with minimal (~2 degrees) knock retard.

So, does premium fuel make a difference? In the case of my truck, absolutely. This is an engine that the manufacturer doesn't specifically recommend premium too. Imagine this same scenario in a 6.2L that does recommend premium: I certainly wouldn't expect it to be better.

Because I know the statements and questions are coming:

Why did you do this?
On a whim, I filled with premium. The driveability was so much better. Throttle tip-in was crisper, shifts were less mushy, fuel economy was better, and even restarts after an auto-stop were less jarring. I wanted to know what was going on.

The difference is because it was hot when you logged the regular!
Nope. Neither one was logged when it was hot. They were both logged in early fall, about two weeks apart. It was actually warmer when I logged the premium, which you can see in the increased engine oil and transmission fluid temp. Ambient temp and IAT is part of the standard channels that I log, I just don't graph them.

It's because you were towing! I don't tow, so this doesn't apply to me.
I have dozens of logs over the past 6 months, regular and premium, with and without the trailer. Regular consistently has more instances of knock retard on any given trip, no matter the situation. I chose these two to compare because I knew they were on exactly the same road and in a very similar operating envelope (ambient conditions and load). Comparing these two in particular shows a stark different between the two and also shows that even with premium, there still may be instances where knock retard will pull timing.

You had a bad tank of 87!
Not likely. See the part above about similar results over 6 months and multiple tanks of fuel. Both fuels were pumped from a very high-volume Costco, so they're Top Tier as well. This is the same station I fill up my wife's car at too. Never an issue with her vehicle.

From here, do with this what you will. I really don't care whether you use premium or regular and I'm not making a recommendation. I'm just sharing data where often only exists opinion.

Do I fill up with premium?
Opinion incoming: Yes. It's pretty obvious that the ECM doesn't have to intervene as much because knock is simply less present. Yeah, the extra cost stinks, especially when getting 9.5mpg while towing. For me, the better driveability is worth the extra cost. Much of the benefit for me comes down to the shift characteristics. GM's 8-speed isn't the most refined or sophisticated transmission. I'd go so far to say that the shifting is often mushy. What does that have to do with the fuel in the tank? It's all about timing control. GM's torque reduction strategy largely centers around retarding timing during a shift to reduce input torque while the shift is completed. I feel that the premium fuel allows much more stable timing control when the ECM is retarding and advancing during shifts. It makes the whole shift feel better because the ECM can begin advancing timing more aggressively after the shift, leaving the throttle feeling crisper when exiting the shift and less mushy. Same thing with regular throttle tip-in and during auto-stop restarts: Most stable timing control.
It'd be interesting to see an E15 88 octane graph. I've heard claims it does better than E10 89 due to the higher alcohol content. It would also be an interesting data point to see what , if any, advantage their would be in 80s and 90s engines with 8.8:1 to 9:4:1 compression ratios. All the data I'm seeing today is for contemporary high compression(10:1) engines and turboed engines. I've never experienced any problems with knock in stock 350s, 351s, 4.0s, 318s, 454s, 440s, etc. with E10 87.
 
Last evening I did a fill up of 91 E0 for the 4th tank in a row in the Maverick Hybrid. My results were the best yet. 2/3 city 1/3 hiway in the 55-70 mph range. 49.4 MPG. It was a 1/2 tank short fill due to upcoming trip. The fillup was at the same pump, set on low flow to first click. 23¢ added to get to nearest quarter dollar amount.

View attachment 123385
Do I think premium helps. Yes, but I think the E0 is most of my approx 12% gain in mileage. Yes, I haven't had my coffee yet. Maybe constant use of premium is slowly reprogramming the ECU for better efficiency, or a dozen other possibilities that exist. Just presenting my 2¢ worth of verified results of switching to higher octane.
Wow, you have cheap 91 E0. Here in PA, 90 E0 is $1+ more than E10 87 or E15 88.
 
In this case it's smoother performance in a daily driving scenario since the ECU doesn't have to pull timing so often. In other cases with hi-po cars (for example the Evo), the ecu will retard the timing. 91 Oct will pull ~3° of timing compared to 93oct. Going down to 87oct will pull around 10° of timing. However, the car will still work and drive with lower Oct fuel but at a cost of smooth drivability and lower power.
How does it drive if you dump in a gallon of xylene or toluene to boost the octane to around 95? Adding some higher ethanol content E85 to raise it to 95-96 octane?
 
In some states premium is $1 per gallon more. In my area it's only $.30 or so. If it's a lot more it may not be worth it.
I think it has more to do with the extra cost as a percent of the total fuel cost. 30c difference over $4.50 is much lower than 30c difference over $3.00.
 
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