Dampers quickly melting on dirt road

[AlphaOmega]

But all cars and trucks are a "budget" in the sub $100K range or so. I mean I agree to some extent, any truck will eventually have parts fail if you hammer it enough. But that doesn't mean you can't improve on stock parts AND by doing so cause near instant death.

I was referring to the part in red color:

“changing to the larger shock wasn’t a simple matter of swapping them. In order to meet ride and handling and safety requirements, putting the larger shocks on the truck would cause engineers to reinforce other sections of the truck to handle load differences.”

My amateur deduction from the above is telling me that Tacoma TRD Pro is maxed out design, without any overhead left. A premium vehicle from a European maker, I would think (maybe I’m wrong), is over engineered, in a sense that the same structure and chasis are used for high powered variants. A regular E class from Merc, for example, has the same body, chasis and suspension design as its AMG variant. Toyota think Tacoma design requires modification to fit larger rear dampers . I thought Tacoma is a simple but an over engineered design. Just thinking out loud, I’m far from an expert

 

[Pablo]

I was referring to the part in red color:

“changing to the larger shock wasn’t a simple matter of swapping them. In order to meet ride and handling and safety requirements, putting the larger shocks on the truck would cause engineers to reinforce other sections of the truck to handle load differences.”

My amateur deduction from the above is telling me that Tacoma TRD Pro is maxed out design, without any overhead left. A premium vehicle from a European maker, I would think (maybe I’m wrong), is over engineered, in a sense that the same structure and chasis are used for high powered variants. A regular E class from Merc, for example, has the same body, chasis and suspension design as its AMG variant. Toyota think Tacoma design requires modification to fit larger rear dampers . I thought Tacoma is a simple but an over engineered design. Just thinking out loud, I’m far from an expert

Great discussion. I think he misspoke honestly and using general terms like "larger". What does he mean? Longer? Larger diameter?? I think if he said something - even like stiffer or longer travel etc and used the word COULD instead of would.

Tacoma has roots in the lowly SR5 and before, Toyota is known for knowing what the limits are and not exceeding them. Actually I didn't know the cheapie E class has the same exact chassis as the AMG. Not inspiring, but we are talking about beating "lower cost" trucks on washboard roads. My Tacoma sport way back in the old days of Aug 2018 cost me under or right at $30K. I think if I put some better shocks on the thing, stuff won't start cracking right away.

 

[AlphaOmega]

haven't watched the video yet, but yesterday I did 30+ miles of washboard at 30 mph, and my shocks are fine. kyb gas a just on ifs/irs Mitsubishi Montero.

Next time, could you use a laser thermometer to see what the exterior of damper is at?

What kind of car, what kind of dampers and how old are they? Have you actually inspected them after the ride?

 

[AlphaOmega]

Great discussion. I think he misspoke honestly and using general terms like "larger". What does he mean? Longer? Larger diameter?? I think if he said something - even like stiffer or longer travel etc and used the word COULD instead of would.

Tacoma has roots in the lowly SR5 and before, Toyota is known for knowing what the limits are and not exceeding them. Actually I didn't know the cheapie E class has the same exact chassis as the AMG. Not inspiring, but we are talking about beating "lower cost" trucks on washboard roads. My Tacoma sport way back in the old days of Aug 2018 cost me under or right at $30K. I think if I put some better shocks on the thing, stuff won't start cracking right away.

The part in red color, that was from an “insider Toyota source” whom the tester by the last name Edmunds (not related to the founder of Edmunds.com), who himself used to be a suspension engineer for Toyota, contacted regarding blown TRD Pro/Bilstein dampers. The point was that Toyota picked the “skinniest Bilstein damper” - 36 mm - for the job and he was probing that inside Toyota source as to why Toyota did not go with 46 mm damper, which “would hold 68 percent more oil, 28 percent more surface area for the heat to radiate out” vs 36 mm one. And that source’s response was in red in previous post.

I don’t think a beefier damper will damage anything, but it is interesting that Toyota did not go for a larger one because by its standards - allegedly, if the source is accurate - it would require a further modification of the overall design.

 

[Pablo]

The part in red color, that was from an “insider Toyota source” whom the tester by the last name Edmunds (not related to the founder of Edmunds.com), who himself used to be a suspension engineer for Toyota, contacted regarding blown TRD Pro/Bilstein dampers. The point was that Toyota picked the “skinniest Bilstein damper” - 36 mm - for the job and he was probing that inside Toyota source as to why Toyota did not go with 46 mm damper, which “would hold 68 percent more oil, 28 percent more surface area for the heat to radiate out” vs 36 mm one. And that source’s response was in red in previous post.

I don’t think a beefier damper will damage anything, but it is interesting that Toyota did not go for a larger one because by its standards - allegedly, if the source is accurate - it would require a further modification of the overall design.

I get that. Ultimately it was about saving $ in my opinion.

 

[IndyIan]

The part in red color, that was from an “insider Toyota source” whom the tester by the last name Edmunds (not related to the founder of Edmunds.com), who himself used to be a suspension engineer for Toyota, contacted regarding blown TRD Pro/Bilstein dampers. The point was that Toyota picked the “skinniest Bilstein damper” - 36 mm - for the job and he was probing that inside Toyota source as to why Toyota did not go with 46 mm damper, which “would hold 68 percent more oil, 28 percent more surface area for the heat to radiate out” vs 36 mm one. And that source’s response was in red in previous post.

I don’t think a beefier damper will damage anything, but it is interesting that Toyota did not go for a larger one because by its standards - allegedly, if the source is accurate - it would require a further modification of the overall design.

I guess they are thinking about it at least.
Many years ago, we had a new Ford 15 person van (a rental!) for the tree planting crew I was in, and my crew boss liked to hustle it on the logging roads. It took some serious hits and you could hear the sheetmetal roof pop down and then back up just from the compression on a really big one. Eventually all the baja driving snapped one of shock mounts off the rear axle, and then the shock got bent part way around the axle as it dragged on the ground when we bottomed out...
Anyways the number of jumps, bottom and top outs was too much for that design, and that part failed. The rest of the van seemed relatively good, but I would've liked to see what happened when they returned it after 8 weeks of tree planting duty...

 

[ctechbob]

Another thought that I had, and this is just my opinion. They were not 'offroading' in those trucks. They were 'desert running', which, in my mind, are two totally different things and mostly require two different sorts of trucks.

 

[meep]

I’ll chime in to second Pablo. I’ve purchased several sets of bilsteins. In the past they were my go-to, best of breed recommendation. I bought a set of 5100s in 2019 or so, did some moderate towing with them off and on, and for the most part dailied the truck to work. The rebound damping was -shot- around 20,000 miles. Compression damping seemed like new, but both left and right sides evenly lost rebound control. Every single bump acted like a pogo stick. It was a shamefully short lifespan for them, and I didn’t use them that hard at all.

 

[Pablo]

I’ll chime in to second Pablo. I’ve purchased several sets of bilsteins. In the past they were my go-to, best of breed recommendation. I bought a set of 5100s in 2019 or so, did some moderate towing with them off and on, and for the most part dailied the truck to work. The rebound damping was -shot- around 20,000 miles. Compression damping seemed like new, but both left and right sides evenly lost rebound control. Every single bump acted like a pogo stick. It was a shamefully short lifespan for them, and I didn’t use them that hard at all.

What vehicle?

Such things could be an application issue. I can’t in all fairness bad mouth the whole company or every shock they make. They do make some great products

 

[UG_Passat]

NO.

Bilstein are garbage. A company that lives by name only, IMHO.

My brother blew out two sets on his Tundra.

BTW This seems like a Ridgeline commercial. And FTR my stock Tacoma shocks (Hitachi??) seem fine after good beatings.

Hitachi's are known for leaking early on.

My hitachi's made it past the early leaking period.

But... washboard dirt roads can be quite brutal... especially my HiHy on 235/55r20 tires, since it's been to Joshua Tree NP's Geological Tour Road twice and the washboard road up at Lassen Volcanic NP to go to/from the campground.

Washboards at speed is very high frequency on the dampers, so the damper fluid and seals are taking a beating. Driving slower does take forever.

But, I've had Bilstein monotubes with Eibach Pro.Kit springs, which lasted 150,000 miles until the front strut blew.

Some of the Toyota TRD Pro offerings have Fox internal bypass dampers which has better heat capacity.

 

[Srt20]

I’ll chime in to second Pablo. I’ve purchased several sets of bilsteins. In the past they were my go-to, best of breed recommendation. I bought a set of 5100s in 2019 or so, did some moderate towing with them off and on, and for the most part dailied the truck to work. The rebound damping was -shot- around 20,000 miles. Compression damping seemed like new, but both left and right sides evenly lost rebound control. Every single bump acted like a pogo stick. It was a shamefully short lifespan for them, and I didn’t use them that hard at all.

5100 are non adjustable mono tube shocks, right?
The rebound cannot be shot without the compression being new. The compression and rebound work with the same oil, same nitrogen, same piston and valves.

Again, I’m definitely not a Bilstein fanboy.

I’m not an Amsoil fanboy either, but I like their shock oil….and their gear lube.

 

[meep]

@Pablo @Srt20

this was the rear of an unlifted 2018 F150. The compression may have been weaker but where I really noticed it was rebound.

srt- you mentioned same valves? Bilstein listed different rebound and compression numbers for these years ago when I called them - I thought they had to use different wafers to achieve that?

I mean - I’ve never had them apart, but… they were very nice when new, and became a floaty pogo stick later. Idk. ?

the other thing I learned was this, and it probably exacerbated my problem. There are different modes of dampening in the 5100 (rear) based on shock position. The lower third is a notably stiffer position than the upper 2/3rds. I learned this when I bought another set, tried them for a day and returned them. Try compressing them fully during installation (it takes some work) - you’ll note that they are reasonably compressed until the bottom third or so, where it noticeably changes and gets much harder to compress. I think it’s their attempt at a bump-stop or sway control. Kinda gives it a jeckyll and hide personality of concrete interstates.

 

[Srt20]

Here is an illustration. What they call shims, I called valves. They are correctly calling them shims.

 

[Srt20]

Here is a pic of some shock piston I snagged from google. No idea what it’s for, but they are mostly some version of this. Than the shims on either side. Different shims, shim thicknesses, and diameters amongst the shims. They do not need to be in a pyramid order either.

 

[Srt20]

Here is a link about shocks.

Digressive vs Linear vs Progressive Pistons & Shock Valving - AccuTune Off-Road

AccuTune Off-Road’s Experience: Our Founder and author of this article, Ryan Raker, has been designing, tuning, and manufacturing shocks with digressive, linear and progressive damping curves since 2001. During that time he used state of the art shock dyno’s to design and/or tune premium shocks...

accutuneoffroad.com

 

[Pablo]

Results here:

 

[meep]

Here is an illustration. What they call shims, I called valves. They are correctly calling them shims.


View attachment 153417

So, I’m not an expert by any means, but this drawing shows rebound and compeession shims as separate pieces. Above you mentioned that they are the same and they cannot wear separately, that they wear together, but the picture shows that the shims are separately stacked (and likely separately selected for different rates). If the rebound shims are smaller, thinner, or lighter, the same miles traveled could bring them to a point of fatigue or sloppiness before the other stack, at least by what the picture shows.

 

[Srt20]

So, I’m not an expert by any means, but this drawing shows rebound and compeession shims as separate pieces. Above you mentioned that they are the same and they cannot wear separately, that they wear together, but the picture shows that the shims are separately stacked (and likely separately selected for different rates). If the rebound shims are smaller, thinner, or lighter, the same miles traveled could bring them to a point of fatigue or sloppiness before the other stack, at least by what the picture shows.

The oil passes through both on compression and rebound strokes. There is a stack on each side, yes. But the oil does not bypass the stack on the other side.

I didnt say the shim wear, together or separate. The oil would be long broken down (oil and nitrogen mixed) before any shim wear or fatigue would occur.

The hard parts dont wear out in normal street driven applications. You are trying to blame this on hard parts. It’s the oil and nitrogen. Or seals.

 

[meep]

Man IDK. All I know is that rebound just came apart on them, while compression still seemed totally fine. Maybe compression weakened as well but had more room to give.