Cummins and fuel additives
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The OEM's have to make that stand,the majority of customers aren't as conciences like the members of this board as to what they put in their vehicles
i have to wonder if the fuel additive products mentioned here were so great, why do the oems not recomend them?
techron is recomended by certain oem's. because it clearly works. i dont think there is a single person who would say techron doesnt work as advertised. why not neutra or that amsoil stuff? (i forgot the name of the amsoil stuff) why dont they get sold by large oems? btw, im not talking about small time places, im talking about large inventory oems. your local used car dealer doesnt count.
techron is recomended by certain oem's. because it clearly works. i dont think there is a single person who would say techron doesnt work as advertised. why not neutra or that amsoil stuff? (i forgot the name of the amsoil stuff) why dont they get sold by large oems? btw, im not talking about small time places, im talking about large inventory oems. your local used car dealer doesnt count.
No modern diesel engine needs a fuel additive unless there's a specific problem with the fuel.
That said, diesel fuel, and gasoline for that matter, are not precisely formulated products. There can be quite a range in fuel performance depending on the refinery's refining technique and choice of additives they add. Here's a lot of good diesel fuel info: http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/
So-called Premium #2 diesel fuel will have additives to boost two of these five fuel properties:
1) Higher BTU content
2) Higher cetane rating (shorter ignition lag time)
3) Improved detergency
4) Stabilizes the fuel at high temperatures (the fuel return from the engine can get hot)
5) Lower cloud point temperature
A good summer additive will give you the first four benefits plus others. Here's some data: http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/137.htm
Ken
That said, diesel fuel, and gasoline for that matter, are not precisely formulated products. There can be quite a range in fuel performance depending on the refinery's refining technique and choice of additives they add. Here's a lot of good diesel fuel info: http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/
So-called Premium #2 diesel fuel will have additives to boost two of these five fuel properties:
1) Higher BTU content
2) Higher cetane rating (shorter ignition lag time)
3) Improved detergency
4) Stabilizes the fuel at high temperatures (the fuel return from the engine can get hot)
5) Lower cloud point temperature
A good summer additive will give you the first four benefits plus others. Here's some data: http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/137.htm
Ken
The reason techron is and amsoil/schaeffers isn't is a thing called MARKETING. Who owns techron, big company like chevron? they ADVERTISE. Notice, amsoil and schaeffers DO NOT advertise on National TV. That is the biggest reason why you'll not see schaeffers on the shelves of auto zone and such because of the lack of public knowledge due to lack of nation wide advertising. Why don't they do it? I couldn't tell you. Just know that's why big companies don't resell little company's products in this case.
Also, just because it's not marketed as the big oil companies do, does it make them not as good as or better than the marketed product?
I've owned three Diesel's since 1985 with the current one being a 2003 Chevy Duramax 6.6L (which by no means makes me an expert). I have always used an additive starting with my shiny new 1985 VW Diesel. In the beginning, I used an additive (Power Service) to make me "feel good". I "believed" it was doing all the things the label said, like keeping my injectors clean, increasing cetane, (whatever that was), and keeping the fuel from "gelling" when it was cold out. Now, with the advent of the Internet (do a search on diesel fuel additives), I've learned there are some good reasons for using a diesel fuel additive. I've also discovered that there are a wide variety of opinions regarding additives including what type (water emulsifier vs water demulsifier), what brands, when to use or not to use. My personal conclusions and main reasons for using a diesel fuel additive are as follows:
1. Since Diesel Fuel WILL contain some amount of water and water is BAD for the injection pump and injectors, I use an additive that demulsifies water so the water separator can do it's job (and trap the water before it reaches the pump and injectors). GM has also taken the demulsifier position - see http://service.gm.com/gmtechlink/images/issues/apr03/TLApr03e.html#story1 On the contrary, some very smart people believe it's best to "lock-up" and disperse the water with an emulsifing additive so it passes harmlessly through the system. This makes sense too. IMHO, either type (emulsifier or demulsifier) is better than none.
2. Since today's Diesel Fuel is low sulfur, it needs some added lubricity. Most additives contain lubricity enhancers. I also add a few ounces of tcw3 2-cycle oil at each fill-up as a pump and injector lubricant (since it's designed to burn with no ash).
3. Since I live in the North East, and untreated Diesel fuel will form wax crystals when ambient temperatures fall below 20degF, I use an additive that prevents wax formation (gelling). Winter, or all season, additives will also prevent the water in diesel fuel from freezing.
Flame suit on … all comments and criticism are welcome…
[ May 29, 2003, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Bill Plock ]
1. Since Diesel Fuel WILL contain some amount of water and water is BAD for the injection pump and injectors, I use an additive that demulsifies water so the water separator can do it's job (and trap the water before it reaches the pump and injectors). GM has also taken the demulsifier position - see http://service.gm.com/gmtechlink/images/issues/apr03/TLApr03e.html#story1 On the contrary, some very smart people believe it's best to "lock-up" and disperse the water with an emulsifing additive so it passes harmlessly through the system. This makes sense too. IMHO, either type (emulsifier or demulsifier) is better than none.
2. Since today's Diesel Fuel is low sulfur, it needs some added lubricity. Most additives contain lubricity enhancers. I also add a few ounces of tcw3 2-cycle oil at each fill-up as a pump and injector lubricant (since it's designed to burn with no ash).
3. Since I live in the North East, and untreated Diesel fuel will form wax crystals when ambient temperatures fall below 20degF, I use an additive that prevents wax formation (gelling). Winter, or all season, additives will also prevent the water in diesel fuel from freezing.
Flame suit on … all comments and criticism are welcome…
[ May 29, 2003, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Bill Plock ]
Great post Bill.
I believe its a blanket statement to protect the company as well as the consumer.
Think about this. There are additives out there that can harm your fuel system(mostly made by the snake oil companies Z-Max comes to mind)
Anyhow, it would be nearly impossible for an engine manufacuture to test all possible fuel treatments to see if they work.
I believe that fuel additives work especially for diesels. I've used additives in my VW TDI pretty consistantly and can tell when I don't.
I just think you shouldn't go overboard with the additives, but they are designed to keep the injectors and fuel system clean.
With the Gasoline additives I have seen with my own eyes the differece with emmission tests before and after use of the Amsoil PI.
With my VW. I use Amsoil Diesel Fuel Concentrate along with the Cetane boost. Hope this helps
Its common for folks to think that low sulphur diesel means decreased lubricity. In the old days, removing the suplhur also removed some of the things that gave diesel its lubricity. It was not the sulphur itself.
Refining processes have improved, and now lower sulphur does not necessarily mean lower lubricity. Refiners also add agents to diesel to retain these properties as needed. So long as one is buying qulaity fuel, there should be no need for enhancement from additives.
The same goes for the winter properties of diesel. All of those issues should be handled before you ever get the diesel fuel. Straight No. 2 with no additives from the refiner or blending with No. 1 will start to prodice the wax crystals around 20 F, as stated. In nearly every area of the country, and one would think the same for New England, the fuel that is delivered to retailers is modified to deal with the expected weather conditions in the area.
Here, for the Diesel equipment that I use, it always comes straight from the retailer, no additives added by us. It is marketed as Artic Diesel here in the winter time - its a blend of No 1 and No 2 and different additives from the refiner. With regular filter changes, there have been no issues with this approach down to -30 F and below.
The key is making sure you fuel supplier is getting good fuel with adequate turnover and properly maintained tanks and your equipment in maintained well. After that, none of the additives become necessary, unless it makes you feel good or are having quality issues from your supplier.
Refining processes have improved, and now lower sulphur does not necessarily mean lower lubricity. Refiners also add agents to diesel to retain these properties as needed. So long as one is buying qulaity fuel, there should be no need for enhancement from additives.
The same goes for the winter properties of diesel. All of those issues should be handled before you ever get the diesel fuel. Straight No. 2 with no additives from the refiner or blending with No. 1 will start to prodice the wax crystals around 20 F, as stated. In nearly every area of the country, and one would think the same for New England, the fuel that is delivered to retailers is modified to deal with the expected weather conditions in the area.
Here, for the Diesel equipment that I use, it always comes straight from the retailer, no additives added by us. It is marketed as Artic Diesel here in the winter time - its a blend of No 1 and No 2 and different additives from the refiner. With regular filter changes, there have been no issues with this approach down to -30 F and below.
The key is making sure you fuel supplier is getting good fuel with adequate turnover and properly maintained tanks and your equipment in maintained well. After that, none of the additives become necessary, unless it makes you feel good or are having quality issues from your supplier.
I don't have a diesel engine; I have a gasoline engine in my car. But I am certain that Schaeffer's Neutra works. I put 12 oz. of Neutra in my gas and without question the fuel economy increased; I did not make precise measurements but I clearly was able to go further on a tank of fuel. The car also ran very well.
Why the fuel economy increased and the car ran so nice is something I do not know. Maybe because Neutra is an UCL; maybe because it cleaned and lubricated the fuel injection system; I don't know. But I am going to put 3 oz. of Neutra in every tankful.
Why the fuel economy increased and the car ran so nice is something I do not know. Maybe because Neutra is an UCL; maybe because it cleaned and lubricated the fuel injection system; I don't know. But I am going to put 3 oz. of Neutra in every tankful.
MNGopher,
I totally agree with your main point that,
"So long as one is buying quality fuel, there should be no need for enhancement from additives."
I guess I'm just being extra careful since I'm not sure I can trust the places I buy fuel. I do try to purchase from high volume suppliers but you never know....
(I'm also the ultra-anal engineer type who runs oil bypass filters, uses 100% synthetic lubes, and adds additional 1-2 micron fuel filters)
[ May 29, 2003, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Bill Plock ]
I totally agree with your main point that,
"So long as one is buying quality fuel, there should be no need for enhancement from additives."
I guess I'm just being extra careful since I'm not sure I can trust the places I buy fuel. I do try to purchase from high volume suppliers but you never know....
(I'm also the ultra-anal engineer type who runs oil bypass filters, uses 100% synthetic lubes, and adds additional 1-2 micron fuel filters)
[ May 29, 2003, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Bill Plock ]
Patman
Staff member
I don't think any high quality fuel out there is going to provide the UCL that aftermarket additives will provide though. And I don't believe any fuel sold today is as clean as they'd like us to believe. I believe there will always be a need for fuel additives. My cars get better gas mileage with my use of Neutra (at a rate of one ounce for every 5 gallons of fuel)
MNgopher
#1-D and kerosene have a lower BTU content than #2-D. The winter fuel for best power and lowest fuel consumption would be straight #2-D with a suitable anti-gel additive.
"Diesel Treat 2000 With Flow Improver also contains a highly effective and highly specialized anti-gel additive system. Diesel Treat 2000 With Flow Improver, when added to the diesel fuel before the diesel fuel has reached its cloud point prevents the formation of wax crystals. The anti-gel additive system in Diesel Treat 2000 With Flow Improver modifies the individual wax crystals by encapsulating and dispersing them as they are formed. This drastically reduces the size of the wax crystals and prevents the growth of larger wax crystals and their adhesion to each other. This in turn allows the wax crystals to flow through the fuel filters and lines into the combustion chamber with the diesel fuel. By the addition of Diesel Treat 2000 With Flow Improver to the diesel fuel before it has reached its cloud point, the gelling point of the diesel fuel will be lowered an average of 15° F to 25° F below the original gelling point of the untreated diesel fuel."
http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/137AND.html
Ken
#1-D and kerosene have a lower BTU content than #2-D. The winter fuel for best power and lowest fuel consumption would be straight #2-D with a suitable anti-gel additive.
"Diesel Treat 2000 With Flow Improver also contains a highly effective and highly specialized anti-gel additive system. Diesel Treat 2000 With Flow Improver, when added to the diesel fuel before the diesel fuel has reached its cloud point prevents the formation of wax crystals. The anti-gel additive system in Diesel Treat 2000 With Flow Improver modifies the individual wax crystals by encapsulating and dispersing them as they are formed. This drastically reduces the size of the wax crystals and prevents the growth of larger wax crystals and their adhesion to each other. This in turn allows the wax crystals to flow through the fuel filters and lines into the combustion chamber with the diesel fuel. By the addition of Diesel Treat 2000 With Flow Improver to the diesel fuel before it has reached its cloud point, the gelling point of the diesel fuel will be lowered an average of 15° F to 25° F below the original gelling point of the untreated diesel fuel."
http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/137AND.html
Ken
Ken ,lowering gel point 20 degrees only brings it down to 0 degrees, thats not good enough. Lucas extreme fuel treatment, one quart treats 100 gallons of #2 diesel to Minus 30 degrees. I haven't found a better product for winter use.
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