Copper in oil, Garkunov effect

[Graham Piccinini]

How many of you are familiar with Garkunov Effect?

In short - basically it was found that nano-particles of copper in oil fill up the metal and act as wear reducers, or more so wear eliminators. AKA Copper attaches to the metal and acts as the cushion that takes all the punishment of the friction, without causing much (if any) wear to the metal the copper attached itself to. I have read some about it and the most recent example I could find is a guy who used Cupper 5w40 (Motor oil with copper, Not available in USA sadly) in a Volkswagen Tiguan with a 2.0L TSI engine and 4Motion AWD system. His results were that over the course of 2 OCIs (about 14k miles) the gas mileage went from 27mpg to 33mpg, or 8.5L/100km down to 7L/100km. So as result I started searching for oils on US ground that use that copper additive chemistry in their oils. Only one I found so far was Renewable Lubricants Inc. Question: Anyone knows of other oils or oil additives containing copper as anti-wear agent?

 

[pschnahc]

 

[CT8]

https://www.amazon.com/Restore-8-Cylinder-Formula-Restorer-Lubricant/dp/B000AM8BCC

 

[Graham Piccinini]

Originally Posted by CT8
https://www.amazon.com/Restore-8-Cylinder-Formula-Restorer-Lubricant/dp/B000AM8BCC

Good ol' Copper, Silver, and Lead. Idk how much the cat or O2 sensors like the Lead though... On the other hand - I haven't heard of any cat failures or O2 sensors going out due to "Restore" mixed in the oil. "Restore" killing emission systems seems to be just a myth honestly... Or am I wrong?

 

[Graham Piccinini]

Originally Posted by pschnahc

 

[CT8]

I never use additives so I don't know.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Vladiator
Originally Posted by CT8
https://www.amazon.com/Restore-8-Cylinder-Formula-Restorer-Lubricant/dp/B000AM8BCC

Good ol' Copper, Silver, and Lead. Idk how much the cat or O2 sensors like the Lead though... On the other hand - I haven't heard of any cat failures or O2 sensors going out due to "Restore" mixed in the oil. "Restore" killing emission systems seems to be just a myth honestly... Or am I wrong?


Typically the product is used in engines already in the final inning of the game, so I doubt there would be any longer-term data to even analyze.

 

[MrQuackers]

Hmm, maybe I'll toss in a few wheatbacks

 

[Graham Piccinini]

Here is an interesting read:
Effects of Copper and Sunflower oil as anti-wear additives in motor oils.

https://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/1999/09/oil.html

 

[MolaKule]

In Tribology, the Garkunov effect is one of selective transfer of softer metals to harder metals. You need to explain the full tribological process in order to understand what's going on at the surface.

As the "copper indutstries" link above explains it's not nanoparticles of copper that are used in biosynthetic lubricants but oil soluble copper derivatives such as copper dihydrocarbyl thio- or dithio-phosphates, copper dithiocarboamates, copper sulphonates, carboxylates, and phenates.

The above are used as oxidation inhibitors for epoxidized vegetable oils.

 

[mpack88]

Look up engine restore on Project Farms YouTube page

 

[Silk]

Pro-ma MBL8 - full of lead and copper, heavy duty stuff, as in real heavy. We used to use it to quieten noisy lifters.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by MolaKule
In Tribology, the Garkunov effect is one of selective transfer of softer metals to harder metals. You need to explain the full tribological process in order to understand what's going on at the surface.

As the "copper indutstries" link above explains it's not nanoparticles of copper that are used in biosynthetic lubricants but oil soluble copper derivatives such as copper dihydrocarbyl thio- or dithio-phosphates, copper dithiocarboamates, copper sulphonates, carboxylates, and phenates.

The above are used as oxidation inhibitors for epoxidized vegetable oils.


Ok, so why don't we see copper (-derivatives) used widely as an AW additive? Surely it's not a wunderkind of some kind without downside.

 

[rubberchicken]

So if copper is a good antiwear additive, why to Blackstone and the other UOA companies flag high copper levels ? I always get a flag on my boat for high copper, then the company asks me if I have an oil cooler (engine oil-seawater heat exchanger). Which it does, and they compare copper to some other key markers and say "oh, nothing to worry about in your case". I personally would not bother with any copper additive , but perhaps in your case a moly additive would be appropriate.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by rubberchicken
So if copper is a good antiwear additive, why to Blackstone and the other UOA companies flag high copper levels ? I always get a flag on my boat for high copper, then the company asks me if I have an oil cooler (engine oil-seawater heat exchanger). Which it does, and they compare copper to some other key markers and say "oh, nothing to worry about in your case". I personally would not bother with any copper additive , but perhaps in your case a moly additive would be appropriate.

Copper alone is a soft metal and won't promote wear. It's when you see it accompanied with elevated levels of other wear metals like iron, aluminum or tin that it's something to take note of. (even then it's relative to the oci. ppm/1k miles). Otherwise it's harmless but could be a sign of an impending oil cooler issue. You need to establish a wear trend to say with any degree of certainty.

 

[Silk]

If the engine has copper/lead shell bearings, then high copper is certainly an issue.