Okay okay, I know this topic has been beaten to death but with the ever changing world and requirements of motor oil and the advancements of the modern engine I have to ask; With todays standards for oil what benefit is a synthetic providing over a conventional? Especiialy when both start out with close TBNs. Lets just compare Pennzoil Yellow conventional vs Platinum per say in a non high performance application.
Conventional vs Synthetic
- Thread starter 05Blazer
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Somewhat longer oil life and somewhat higher viscosity index---doesn't thicken as much when very cold and doesn't thin as much when very hot.
Your point is well taken. Conventional oils are better than ever. Only PAO synthetics (hard to find any more) offer higher film strength and the best low temp service.
All that said, GM's tough new standards for the performance of automatic transmission fluid and engine oil can only be met by certain syn blend or better base oils, the Dexron-VI and Dexos1 specs.
Your point is well taken. Conventional oils are better than ever. Only PAO synthetics (hard to find any more) offer higher film strength and the best low temp service.
All that said, GM's tough new standards for the performance of automatic transmission fluid and engine oil can only be met by certain syn blend or better base oils, the Dexron-VI and Dexos1 specs.
I think the more important difference from conventional to synthetic is in the noack values. That matters more with turbo and direct injection engines where deposits are a problem that hasn't yet been engineered out of the equation.
If you are looking for extended OCI, I'm sure it also helps there too. Maybe not even from just the base stock, but from the better additive packages used since synthetic oils are mostly marketed as a premium product.
If you are looking for extended OCI, I'm sure it also helps there too. Maybe not even from just the base stock, but from the better additive packages used since synthetic oils are mostly marketed as a premium product.
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Hurry Bill! change it out before its too late!!
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Hurry Bill! change it out before its too late!!
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Proof that you don't need a synthetic oil. I like the idea of synthetics and use them in my lower mile vehicles but my high mileage work truck( chev 1500 with tb fuel injection and a 350) gets whatever is on sale in the day I change it. It's got over 400000 kms with no work since I bought it about 30000 kms ago.
My Harley gets synthetic becauses it's an air cooled motor and so does the mustang because I drive the heck right out of it.
Vehicles have been running fine for 100 years on conventional oil. Sure I like the tech behind synthetic but I don't think it's a must have in older motors. New cars with factory synthetic fills may or may not need synthetic however synthetic does last longer.
Older motors with older rings on the pistons that let more fuel blow-by them are better served with cheap conventional and change it often to keep fuel dilution from being a problem.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Proof that you don't need a synthetic oil. I like the idea of synthetics and use them in my lower mile vehicles but my high mileage work truck( chev 1500 with tb fuel injection and a 350) gets whatever is on sale in the day I change it. It's got over 400000 kms with no work since I bought it about 30000 kms ago.
My Harley gets synthetic becauses it's an air cooled motor and so does the mustang because I drive the heck right out of it.
Vehicles have been running fine for 100 years on conventional oil. Sure I like the tech behind synthetic but I don't think it's a must have in older motors. New cars with factory synthetic fills may or may not need synthetic however synthetic does last longer.
Older motors with older rings on the pistons that let more fuel blow-by them are better served with cheap conventional and change it often to keep fuel dilution from being a problem.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Good for you and all your followers. Whats great about BITOG is countering opinions. You have mine.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Good for you and all your followers. Whats great about BITOG is countering opinions. You have mine.
I don't have a problem with engines that NEED syn or if you WANT to run it.
But please don't state as FACT that engines will only make big miles only if you short OCI conventional (not TRUE) or run syn oil.
A few actual numbers (and does ANYONE disagree with the fact that today's oils (either syn or conventional) are NOT better than API SE,SF,SG,SH and so on?)
1986 Jetta 1.8l 394,000 miles before it died. Oil was mostly Valvoline 10w30 or Halvoline 10w30 until mid 90's when 5w30 came out. The 5w30 DID make starting below ZERO easier. OCI were in the 4-5k for the first 100k then 5-7k for the rest.
1996 Chevy 4.3l V6 truck coming up on 300,000 miles. Mostly Pennzoil, Quaker State or Valvoline 5w30 changed every 5-7k.
1993 Dodge Caravan 3.3l V6 well past 250,000 miles. Mostly Pennzoil/Valvoline 5w30 going 5-6k OCI. HARD Montana winters for its life.
2005 Toyota Corolla 1.8l I4 226k miles. Seen pretty well everything but the majority has been conventional oils 5-6k OCI for the first 100k then 7-9k OCI for the remainder.
And in the family and friends more examples but there are a few.
True nothing very high tech about these vehicles. But NONE of them have had any problems.
Want to run a syn oil? Great. But it is a fact that most of the vehicles out there make it just fine with normal oil changes with fresh oil and filter. Brand really does not matter as long as it meets specs and same with the filter.
Take care, Bill
But please don't state as FACT that engines will only make big miles only if you short OCI conventional (not TRUE) or run syn oil.
A few actual numbers (and does ANYONE disagree with the fact that today's oils (either syn or conventional) are NOT better than API SE,SF,SG,SH and so on?)
1986 Jetta 1.8l 394,000 miles before it died. Oil was mostly Valvoline 10w30 or Halvoline 10w30 until mid 90's when 5w30 came out. The 5w30 DID make starting below ZERO easier. OCI were in the 4-5k for the first 100k then 5-7k for the rest.
1996 Chevy 4.3l V6 truck coming up on 300,000 miles. Mostly Pennzoil, Quaker State or Valvoline 5w30 changed every 5-7k.
1993 Dodge Caravan 3.3l V6 well past 250,000 miles. Mostly Pennzoil/Valvoline 5w30 going 5-6k OCI. HARD Montana winters for its life.
2005 Toyota Corolla 1.8l I4 226k miles. Seen pretty well everything but the majority has been conventional oils 5-6k OCI for the first 100k then 7-9k OCI for the remainder.
And in the family and friends more examples but there are a few.
True nothing very high tech about these vehicles. But NONE of them have had any problems.
Want to run a syn oil? Great. But it is a fact that most of the vehicles out there make it just fine with normal oil changes with fresh oil and filter. Brand really does not matter as long as it meets specs and same with the filter.
Take care, Bill
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Good for you and all your followers. Whats great about BITOG is countering opinions. You have mine.
You MADE a statement as FACT.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
That statement is NOT true. My engine has VVT (or whatever they call it) runs conventional oil with NON "short" OCI and does not have a problem yet. Since "sooner" has gone when will "later" be?
You are correct that is your opinion. But remember that more people read this forum and take back what they read to other places and we just need to keep opinions as opinion and facts as facts.
You are running a syn oil 5k OCI? If its so great why not longer? The factory stated OCI for your model is 7,500 mile OCI with (I think) API SJ conventional. You are running Mobil 1 High Mileage oil 5,000 miles.
Don't have any trust in the oil?
Taking the recommended oil from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles would be what some people consider a safety margin. But then taking a "better" oil that "should" do 7,500 miles easy shorter is for what reason?
Just trying to see the mindset.
Bill
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Good for you and all your followers. Whats great about BITOG is countering opinions. You have mine.
You MADE a statement as FACT.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
That statement is NOT true. My engine has VVT (or whatever they call it) runs conventional oil with NON "short" OCI and does not have a problem yet. Since "sooner" has gone when will "later" be?
You are correct that is your opinion. But remember that more people read this forum and take back what they read to other places and we just need to keep opinions as opinion and facts as facts.
You are running a syn oil 5k OCI? If its so great why not longer? The factory stated OCI for your model is 7,500 mile OCI with (I think) API SJ conventional. You are running Mobil 1 High Mileage oil 5,000 miles.
Don't have any trust in the oil?
Taking the recommended oil from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles would be what some people consider a safety margin. But then taking a "better" oil that "should" do 7,500 miles easy shorter is for what reason?
Just trying to see the mindset.
Bill
I only wish I lived in a part of the country where a 15 mile run during rush hour didn't take an hour on a good day, and the pot holes weren't the size of a small grave. I'd stretch the OCI and bet my vehicles would last a very, very long time.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I only wish I lived in a part of the country where a 15 mile run during rush hour didn't take an hour on a good day, and the pot holes weren't the size of a small grave. I'd stretch the OCI and bet my vehicles would last a very, very long time.
Please don't remind me of the Pot holes... I don't have the traffic too often until someone does something stupid. Then it can be a hour + sitting in the same place on the freeway.
Sadly this seems to be happening more and more.
I only wish I lived in a part of the country where a 15 mile run during rush hour didn't take an hour on a good day, and the pot holes weren't the size of a small grave. I'd stretch the OCI and bet my vehicles would last a very, very long time.
Please don't remind me of the Pot holes... I don't have the traffic too often until someone does something stupid. Then it can be a hour + sitting in the same place on the freeway.
Sadly this seems to be happening more and more.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I only wish I lived in a part of the country where a 15 mile run during rush hour didn't take an hour on a good day, and the pot holes weren't the size of a small grave. I'd stretch the OCI and bet my vehicles would last a very, very long time.
Please don't remind me of the Pot holes... I don't have the traffic too often until someone does something stupid. Then it can be a hour + sitting in the same place on the freeway.
Sadly this seems to be happening more and more.
LOL I'll still trade with you..........
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I only wish I lived in a part of the country where a 15 mile run during rush hour didn't take an hour on a good day, and the pot holes weren't the size of a small grave. I'd stretch the OCI and bet my vehicles would last a very, very long time.
Please don't remind me of the Pot holes... I don't have the traffic too often until someone does something stupid. Then it can be a hour + sitting in the same place on the freeway.
Sadly this seems to be happening more and more.
LOL I'll still trade with you..........
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
I'd use a synthetic in a turbocharged car, but umpteen jillion cars have variable valve timing and are just perfect with dino.
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
I'd use a synthetic in a turbocharged car, but umpteen jillion cars have variable valve timing and are just perfect with dino.
Originally Posted By: 05Blazer
Okay okay, I know this topic has been beaten to death but with the ever changing world and requirements of motor oil and the advancements of the modern engine I have to ask; With todays standards for oil what benefit is a synthetic providing over a conventional? Especiialy when both start out with close TBNs. Lets just compare Pennzoil Yellow conventional vs Platinum per say in a non high performance application.
I see you're using Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 and when compared to Pennzoil Conventional 5w20 there is very little advantage. I consider the 5W-20 a dino grade since one of the main advantages of synthetic oil is their cold start performance (at all start-up temp's) as indicated by their higher viscosity index's and you don't often get that with 5W-20 syn' oils. So if you are going to bring for a synthetic oil choose a 0W-20 grade to take advantage of it's inherently higher VI.
Okay okay, I know this topic has been beaten to death but with the ever changing world and requirements of motor oil and the advancements of the modern engine I have to ask; With todays standards for oil what benefit is a synthetic providing over a conventional? Especiialy when both start out with close TBNs. Lets just compare Pennzoil Yellow conventional vs Platinum per say in a non high performance application.
I see you're using Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 and when compared to Pennzoil Conventional 5w20 there is very little advantage. I consider the 5W-20 a dino grade since one of the main advantages of synthetic oil is their cold start performance (at all start-up temp's) as indicated by their higher viscosity index's and you don't often get that with 5W-20 syn' oils. So if you are going to bring for a synthetic oil choose a 0W-20 grade to take advantage of it's inherently higher VI.
Hi,
05Blazer - I don't normally participate in these Threads as they are so repetitive and so easily become argumentative without a conclusion - as there really is none!
IMO and E always use a lubricant that is specified by the Manufacturer - that is all that is needed for a satisfactory engine/component performance and life. Except in some Third World Markets and their locally maded vehicles where a superior (than their minimum spec) lubricant can have some benefits
I have trialled, tested and used synthetic lubricants for nearly fifty years. For Oil Companies and Manufacturers too and in equipment ranging from race motorbikes to heavy commercial vehicles.
In some early circumstances they "masked" significant Engineering defects and at times extended service intervals. In others they were less than successful.
In the HDEO field IME they (some) enabled tripling (at least) of recommended OCIs and extended service intervals especially in valve gear adjustments. This was because of superior cold flow and soot handling characteristics and the likes
Did they extend engine life? - I believe yes!
Did they produce better results in driveline applications - yes and without a doubt!
Where a Manufacturer specifies a synthetic then IMO don't use a mineral lubricant!
Remember however that todays mineral lubricants at the high end are better than many high end synthetics were even less than a decade ago. Such has been the influence of ACEA, a rejuvenated API and the Vehicles Manufacturers own testing and specifications! Lubricant develeopment was largely "dragged along" by the parties mentioned!!
It is interesting to note that Daimler-Benz had their own lubricant specifications well over 50 years ago! So did Porsche - and they both still do!
05Blazer - I don't normally participate in these Threads as they are so repetitive and so easily become argumentative without a conclusion - as there really is none!
IMO and E always use a lubricant that is specified by the Manufacturer - that is all that is needed for a satisfactory engine/component performance and life. Except in some Third World Markets and their locally maded vehicles where a superior (than their minimum spec) lubricant can have some benefits
I have trialled, tested and used synthetic lubricants for nearly fifty years. For Oil Companies and Manufacturers too and in equipment ranging from race motorbikes to heavy commercial vehicles.
In some early circumstances they "masked" significant Engineering defects and at times extended service intervals. In others they were less than successful.
In the HDEO field IME they (some) enabled tripling (at least) of recommended OCIs and extended service intervals especially in valve gear adjustments. This was because of superior cold flow and soot handling characteristics and the likes
Did they extend engine life? - I believe yes!
Did they produce better results in driveline applications - yes and without a doubt!
Where a Manufacturer specifies a synthetic then IMO don't use a mineral lubricant!
Remember however that todays mineral lubricants at the high end are better than many high end synthetics were even less than a decade ago. Such has been the influence of ACEA, a rejuvenated API and the Vehicles Manufacturers own testing and specifications! Lubricant develeopment was largely "dragged along" by the parties mentioned!!
It is interesting to note that Daimler-Benz had their own lubricant specifications well over 50 years ago! So did Porsche - and they both still do!
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Yes I wish the same!! Next car I buy I am thinking of a off road type for the streets of NY. I live in Queens you need over size tires and roll bars!!Not the image most have of this area unless you have lived here..
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I only wish I lived in a part of the country where a 15 mile run during rush hour didn't take an hour on a good day, and the pot holes weren't the size of a small grave. I'd stretch the OCI and bet my vehicles would last a very, very long time.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I only wish I lived in a part of the country where a 15 mile run during rush hour didn't take an hour on a good day, and the pot holes weren't the size of a small grave. I'd stretch the OCI and bet my vehicles would last a very, very long time.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Good for you and all your followers. Whats great about BITOG is countering opinions. You have mine.
You MADE a statement as FACT.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
That statement is NOT true. My engine has VVT (or whatever they call it) runs conventional oil with NON "short" OCI and does not have a problem yet. Since "sooner" has gone when will "later" be?
You are correct that is your opinion. But remember that more people read this forum and take back what they read to other places and we just need to keep opinions as opinion and facts as facts.
You are running a syn oil 5k OCI? If its so great why not longer? The factory stated OCI for your model is 7,500 mile OCI with (I think) API SJ conventional. You are running Mobil 1 High Mileage oil 5,000 miles.
Don't have any trust in the oil?
Taking the recommended oil from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles would be what some people consider a safety margin. But then taking a "better" oil that "should" do 7,500 miles easy shorter is for what reason?
Just trying to see the mindset.
Bill
Makes sense. I can see how short responses can be misinterpreted. Was an opinion based on experiences researching and dealing with with variable valve timing problems. Keeping it short the mindset was...most people on here are into maintenance. But not all people maintain vehicles as they should. Infrequent oil changes, lack of maintenance, etc. For some cars you can get away with it. Others you can't. A simple google will provide page after page of vvt related issues. Researching them for my own problem the common theme for more than half is poor maintenance. Having torn one apart a vvt system it is vulnerable to problems related to sludge and varnish buildup at the OCV, its oil gallies and the vvt actuator.
You are having no problems because you are a good maintainer. Others are not. Not knowing how people maintain the general suggestion would be synthetic as not to have this issue. I did say dino ok keep it short i did not say don't use it. Thats really all there was to it.
As far as analyzing my sig, the corolla is recovering from VVT-i issues including a P1349 (clogged OCV and screen) and a sticky actuator which I was able to clean and would never attempt again. It also had a problem where the small piston oil hole returns clog causing oil consumption. Removing the pistons and drilling out hardened carbon is something I never want to do again. the Camry is under severe service. Had many sludge related problems that have subsided including oil consumption and ticking which I now suspect could have been the early stages of the corolla's vvt issues. All related to poor maintenance from prior owners including admissions to stretching out dino. When I'm comfortable I will extend the corolla.
Hope this helps explain why I wrote that and the mindset.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
Oh no! My 226k mile Corolla is in trouble then. 7-9k ocis through its life.
Running fine. Just like most others that run conventional oil.
Bill
Good for you and all your followers. Whats great about BITOG is countering opinions. You have mine.
You MADE a statement as FACT.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Any engine with variable valve timing (vvt, vtech, etc) should run synthetics. Any buildup of sludge or varnish causes problems with them sooner or later. Run dino ok, but keep it short.
That statement is NOT true. My engine has VVT (or whatever they call it) runs conventional oil with NON "short" OCI and does not have a problem yet. Since "sooner" has gone when will "later" be?
You are correct that is your opinion. But remember that more people read this forum and take back what they read to other places and we just need to keep opinions as opinion and facts as facts.
You are running a syn oil 5k OCI? If its so great why not longer? The factory stated OCI for your model is 7,500 mile OCI with (I think) API SJ conventional. You are running Mobil 1 High Mileage oil 5,000 miles.
Don't have any trust in the oil?
Taking the recommended oil from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles would be what some people consider a safety margin. But then taking a "better" oil that "should" do 7,500 miles easy shorter is for what reason?
Just trying to see the mindset.
Bill
Makes sense. I can see how short responses can be misinterpreted. Was an opinion based on experiences researching and dealing with with variable valve timing problems. Keeping it short the mindset was...most people on here are into maintenance. But not all people maintain vehicles as they should. Infrequent oil changes, lack of maintenance, etc. For some cars you can get away with it. Others you can't. A simple google will provide page after page of vvt related issues. Researching them for my own problem the common theme for more than half is poor maintenance. Having torn one apart a vvt system it is vulnerable to problems related to sludge and varnish buildup at the OCV, its oil gallies and the vvt actuator.
You are having no problems because you are a good maintainer. Others are not. Not knowing how people maintain the general suggestion would be synthetic as not to have this issue. I did say dino ok keep it short i did not say don't use it. Thats really all there was to it.
As far as analyzing my sig, the corolla is recovering from VVT-i issues including a P1349 (clogged OCV and screen) and a sticky actuator which I was able to clean and would never attempt again. It also had a problem where the small piston oil hole returns clog causing oil consumption. Removing the pistons and drilling out hardened carbon is something I never want to do again. the Camry is under severe service. Had many sludge related problems that have subsided including oil consumption and ticking which I now suspect could have been the early stages of the corolla's vvt issues. All related to poor maintenance from prior owners including admissions to stretching out dino. When I'm comfortable I will extend the corolla.
Hope this helps explain why I wrote that and the mindset.
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