Quote:
it was a good match
Oh i follow it. 4-2 way to go!
it was a good match
Oh i follow it. 4-2 way to go!
Competing Additives?
- Thread starter Gebo
- Start date
- Status
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Not to beat a dead horse Molakule but you yourself helped to fuel that fire with statements like "oils are blended to a price point".
I don't know how you intended it but a lot of folks took that as the oils are not as good as they could be because they are trying to keep the price down and is in some way lacking.
Blending to a price has been taken out of context apparently.
This was not to say that oils are made inferior or formulators fudge on components.
Not to beat a dead horse Molakule but you yourself helped to fuel that fire with statements like "oils are blended to a price point".
I don't know how you intended it but a lot of folks took that as the oils are not as good as they could be because they are trying to keep the price down and is in some way lacking.
Blending to a price has been taken out of context apparently.
This was not to say that oils are made inferior or formulators fudge on components.
MolaKule
Staff member
Well, the time to edit expired and killed the rest of the post but here it is:
Quote:
Not to beat a dead horse Molakule but you yourself helped to fuel that fire with statements like "oils are blended to a price point".
I don't know how you intended it but a lot of folks took that as the oils are not as good as they could be because they are trying to keep the price down and is in some way lacking.
Blending to a price point has been taken out of context .
This was not to say that oils are made inferior or formulators fudge on components to increase profit margin.
The context was that when developing an oil, one takes all of the components available to him, base oils and additives, and prices an oil that include costs of components, R&D, marketing, facilities, engineering, labor, and transportation to set the price "point" of the oil.
In todays business environment, one does an optimization study to determine what components are available at what cost from what suppliers and then determines which components provide the best ROI basis.
If a supplier comes in and says, "we can supply you with a PAO of the same quality at a lower price, then if that be the case, you will most likely take the deal to improve your profit margin.
But the important thing is that what ever components you use from whatever supplier, your oil has to PERFORM and pass the tests the API and your customers expect.
If it doesn't perform, your reputation suffers, and no marketing hoorah can mend that.
So yes, the price point comment has been taken out of context.
No formulator or mainstream company is going to risk lowering an additive component, called additive "undertreating," or use an inferior base oil and risk it all.
So you cant use the phrase, "price point" to imply that there is a conspiracy afloat such that you can justify aftermarket additives are needed because we formulators left out a component, or reduced a component just so you have to go out and buy an OTC or third party additive.
Quote:
Not to beat a dead horse Molakule but you yourself helped to fuel that fire with statements like "oils are blended to a price point".
I don't know how you intended it but a lot of folks took that as the oils are not as good as they could be because they are trying to keep the price down and is in some way lacking.
Blending to a price point has been taken out of context .
This was not to say that oils are made inferior or formulators fudge on components to increase profit margin.
The context was that when developing an oil, one takes all of the components available to him, base oils and additives, and prices an oil that include costs of components, R&D, marketing, facilities, engineering, labor, and transportation to set the price "point" of the oil.
In todays business environment, one does an optimization study to determine what components are available at what cost from what suppliers and then determines which components provide the best ROI basis.
If a supplier comes in and says, "we can supply you with a PAO of the same quality at a lower price, then if that be the case, you will most likely take the deal to improve your profit margin.
But the important thing is that what ever components you use from whatever supplier, your oil has to PERFORM and pass the tests the API and your customers expect.
If it doesn't perform, your reputation suffers, and no marketing hoorah can mend that.
So yes, the price point comment has been taken out of context.
No formulator or mainstream company is going to risk lowering an additive component, called additive "undertreating," or use an inferior base oil and risk it all.
So you cant use the phrase, "price point" to imply that there is a conspiracy afloat such that you can justify aftermarket additives are needed because we formulators left out a component, or reduced a component just so you have to go out and buy an OTC or third party additive.
Last edited:
MolaKule
Staff member
As an added comment, I think independent organizations such as PIQA, are really providing the motoring public a great service.
I would like to make one more comment. I have seen guys buy incredibly expensive additives-additives so expensive they could have used Mobil 1 motor oil instead. Heck, they could have used Mobil 1 oil and had money left over instead of those expensive additives. And it is kind of pointless to put an oil supplement, good or bad, into cheap, poor quality motor oil. I have seen guys put motor oil into their engines that did not even meet the specs for their vehicles and then dump something like STP Oil Treatment into the engine.
The greatest oil supplement in the world is not going to make that much difference if you are using motor oil that does not even meet the specs. Worry about the motor oil first before you buy any oil supplement.
I now have a very short list of stuff I will use. I think the overwhelming majority of oil supplements are a waste of money. But there is still that short list of stuff I think does work.
The greatest oil supplement in the world is not going to make that much difference if you are using motor oil that does not even meet the specs. Worry about the motor oil first before you buy any oil supplement.
I now have a very short list of stuff I will use. I think the overwhelming majority of oil supplements are a waste of money. But there is still that short list of stuff I think does work.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
However I do believe that there are specific cases where additional additives in an oil could provide a benefit such as during extended oil drains or extreme conditions where operators are abusing equipment outside the limits of their design (which well on it's head is not a good idea, the reality is it happens more often than we would like.)
Well stated Solarent.
In that vein, I am suprized that no one has brought up the topic of the former additive that we developed called, SX-UP, or as Shannow coined it, "SUCKS-UP."
This was developed specifically for alchohol powered dirt track racers, and Classic Cars and Muscle cars dating from about 1955 to 1980.
Back then, methanol-powered dirt track racers were suffering extreme engine wear due to high fuel dilution of those alcohol-powered engines, and muscle car owners and classic car owners did not have a an oil with high AW and FM's. So we developed a supplement to counteract wear and long-term storage effects.
Today, you can buy racing oils and classic car oils specifically for those applications, so you really don't need supplements or OTC additives.
However I do believe that there are specific cases where additional additives in an oil could provide a benefit such as during extended oil drains or extreme conditions where operators are abusing equipment outside the limits of their design (which well on it's head is not a good idea, the reality is it happens more often than we would like.)
Well stated Solarent.
In that vein, I am suprized that no one has brought up the topic of the former additive that we developed called, SX-UP, or as Shannow coined it, "SUCKS-UP."
This was developed specifically for alchohol powered dirt track racers, and Classic Cars and Muscle cars dating from about 1955 to 1980.
Back then, methanol-powered dirt track racers were suffering extreme engine wear due to high fuel dilution of those alcohol-powered engines, and muscle car owners and classic car owners did not have a an oil with high AW and FM's. So we developed a supplement to counteract wear and long-term storage effects.
Today, you can buy racing oils and classic car oils specifically for those applications, so you really don't need supplements or OTC additives.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Mystic
I now have a very short list of stuff I will use. I think the overwhelming majority of oil supplements are a waste of money. But there is still that short list of stuff I think does work.
On the price issue, for sure. I've seen guys put all kinds of nonsense in their oil creating an oil change that would cost more than a Mobil 1 change.
As for supplements, yep, I have a pretty short list that I would use. The unfortunate thing is that the retail space is all devoted to things I wouldn't consider using. If you want a good ZDDP supplement, you're on a hunting trip. If you want motor honey, there are shelves of the stuff.
I now have a very short list of stuff I will use. I think the overwhelming majority of oil supplements are a waste of money. But there is still that short list of stuff I think does work.
On the price issue, for sure. I've seen guys put all kinds of nonsense in their oil creating an oil change that would cost more than a Mobil 1 change.
As for supplements, yep, I have a pretty short list that I would use. The unfortunate thing is that the retail space is all devoted to things I wouldn't consider using. If you want a good ZDDP supplement, you're on a hunting trip. If you want motor honey, there are shelves of the stuff.
Yes, if a person does want a good oil supplement they probably are not going to find it at the local auto parts place. The last time I checked NAPA still carries Lubegard products, although you will probably have to order the stuff. And for older cars that need ZDDP additive that maybe would have to be special ordered also. And I have not even used Lubegard products for a long time.
So the safe thing to do is ignore all the junk oil supplements on the shelves of the local auto parts place and if you want higher quality for your oil change, just use something like Mobil 1 or Pennzoil synthetic. That Mobil 1 oil or Pennzoil synthetic you can find at the auto parts store is some of the best stuff there. A lot better than the typical junk oil supplements they carry.
About the only stuff I will buy at the local auto parts store in the way of supplements is Gumout fuel system cleaner (or Techron) and Sta-Bil for the gasoline for my lawnmower. I still think quality fuel system cleaner is a good idea and I still think fuel stabilizer is good for the gasoline of a lawnmower engine.
If you have an old, dirty engine, you might have to go see an Amsoil dealer to get some engine flush or else try MMO or Kreen. Auto-RX does seem to stop seal leaks, at least sometimes.
There is not a great deal more that I can think of right now. The list is pretty short for supplements. You could even avoid all of them.
So the safe thing to do is ignore all the junk oil supplements on the shelves of the local auto parts place and if you want higher quality for your oil change, just use something like Mobil 1 or Pennzoil synthetic. That Mobil 1 oil or Pennzoil synthetic you can find at the auto parts store is some of the best stuff there. A lot better than the typical junk oil supplements they carry.
About the only stuff I will buy at the local auto parts store in the way of supplements is Gumout fuel system cleaner (or Techron) and Sta-Bil for the gasoline for my lawnmower. I still think quality fuel system cleaner is a good idea and I still think fuel stabilizer is good for the gasoline of a lawnmower engine.
If you have an old, dirty engine, you might have to go see an Amsoil dealer to get some engine flush or else try MMO or Kreen. Auto-RX does seem to stop seal leaks, at least sometimes.
There is not a great deal more that I can think of right now. The list is pretty short for supplements. You could even avoid all of them.
Yep, I'd rather avoid all of them than try all the bad ones.
Quote:
such that you can justify aftermarket additives are needed because we formulators left out a component
Fair enough so additives are not needed so why would anyone need ARX if they leave nothing out?
such that you can justify aftermarket additives are needed because we formulators left out a component
Fair enough so additives are not needed so why would anyone need ARX if they leave nothing out?
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
such that you can justify aftermarket additives are needed because we formulators left out a component
Fair enough so additives are not needed so why would anyone need ARX if they leave nothing out?
I don't classify ARX as an "additive", per se. I consider it a "cleaner." The same way I wouldn't call Kreen or MMO or the various engine flushes "additives." I see them all as "cleaners".
I consider MOLY and ZDDP and Teflon as examples of true "additives."
Why would anyone need to use Kreen or MMO if everything is already in the oil? They use it to try and clean their engines, right?
Quote:
such that you can justify aftermarket additives are needed because we formulators left out a component
Fair enough so additives are not needed so why would anyone need ARX if they leave nothing out?
I don't classify ARX as an "additive", per se. I consider it a "cleaner." The same way I wouldn't call Kreen or MMO or the various engine flushes "additives." I see them all as "cleaners".
I consider MOLY and ZDDP and Teflon as examples of true "additives."
Why would anyone need to use Kreen or MMO if everything is already in the oil? They use it to try and clean their engines, right?
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Gebo
I don't classify ARX as an "additive", per se. I consider it a "cleaner." The same way I wouldn't call Kreen or MMO or the various engine flushes "additives." I see them all as "cleaners".
I consider MOLY and ZDDP and Teflon as examples of true "additives."
Why would anyone need to use Kreen or MMO if everything is already in the oil? They use it to try and clean their engines, right?
I guess its a matter of how a person wants to interpret the words. I consider them all additives since the mfg didn't put them in the oil in the first place. You have to open a bottle and add them.
Each of the additives you mentioned can be categorized differently though. Some are cleaners, some flushes, some anti-wear, others do a few things, etc. JMO
Either way if I'm reading Molakule's comments correctly absolutely nothing is needed in addition to engine oil. Opinions vary.
I don't classify ARX as an "additive", per se. I consider it a "cleaner." The same way I wouldn't call Kreen or MMO or the various engine flushes "additives." I see them all as "cleaners".
I consider MOLY and ZDDP and Teflon as examples of true "additives."
Why would anyone need to use Kreen or MMO if everything is already in the oil? They use it to try and clean their engines, right?
I guess its a matter of how a person wants to interpret the words. I consider them all additives since the mfg didn't put them in the oil in the first place. You have to open a bottle and add them.
Each of the additives you mentioned can be categorized differently though. Some are cleaners, some flushes, some anti-wear, others do a few things, etc. JMO
Either way if I'm reading Molakule's comments correctly absolutely nothing is needed in addition to engine oil. Opinions vary.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Gebo
I don't classify ARX as an "additive", per se. I consider it a "cleaner." The same way I wouldn't call Kreen or MMO or the various engine flushes "additives." I see them all as "cleaners".
I consider MOLY and ZDDP and Teflon as examples of true "additives."
Why would anyone need to use Kreen or MMO if everything is already in the oil? They use it to try and clean their engines, right?
I guess its a matter of how a person wants to interpret the words. I consider them all additives since the mfg didn't put them in the oil in the first place. You have to open a bottle and add them.
Each of the additives you mentioned can be categorized differently though. Some are cleaners, some flushes, some anti-wear, others do a few things, etc. JMO
Either way if I'm reading Molakule's comments correctly absolutely nothing is needed in addition to engine oil. Opinions vary.
I'm with you. 95% of all oils have every thing they need in them. However, only 25% (just pulled out of the air) of us are really serious about taking the best care of our equipment. Neglected maintenance is where some "additives" come into play. There was absolutely nothing lacking in the oil. What was lacking was our changing of it in a timely fashion.
Originally Posted By: Gebo
I don't classify ARX as an "additive", per se. I consider it a "cleaner." The same way I wouldn't call Kreen or MMO or the various engine flushes "additives." I see them all as "cleaners".
I consider MOLY and ZDDP and Teflon as examples of true "additives."
Why would anyone need to use Kreen or MMO if everything is already in the oil? They use it to try and clean their engines, right?
I guess its a matter of how a person wants to interpret the words. I consider them all additives since the mfg didn't put them in the oil in the first place. You have to open a bottle and add them.
Each of the additives you mentioned can be categorized differently though. Some are cleaners, some flushes, some anti-wear, others do a few things, etc. JMO
Either way if I'm reading Molakule's comments correctly absolutely nothing is needed in addition to engine oil. Opinions vary.
I'm with you. 95% of all oils have every thing they need in them. However, only 25% (just pulled out of the air) of us are really serious about taking the best care of our equipment. Neglected maintenance is where some "additives" come into play. There was absolutely nothing lacking in the oil. What was lacking was our changing of it in a timely fashion.
Originally Posted By: Gebo
I'm with you. 95% of all oils have every thing they need in them. However, only 25% (just pulled out of the air) of us are really serious about taking the best care of our equipment. Neglected maintenance is where some "additives" come into play. There was absolutely nothing lacking in the oil. What was lacking was our changing of it in a timely fashion.
I'm with you almost 100%, lol. That's why I use Kreen and MMO for cleaning, and Lubro-Moly or Biotech Engine Protectant for improving the oil. I believe that not all vehicles are meticulously maintained and can benefit from some cleaning. I also believe that oil is blended with corporate earnings on the top of the list. So a little tweaking won't hurt, especially with one of the better products. As always opinions vary.
I'm with you. 95% of all oils have every thing they need in them. However, only 25% (just pulled out of the air) of us are really serious about taking the best care of our equipment. Neglected maintenance is where some "additives" come into play. There was absolutely nothing lacking in the oil. What was lacking was our changing of it in a timely fashion.
I'm with you almost 100%, lol. That's why I use Kreen and MMO for cleaning, and Lubro-Moly or Biotech Engine Protectant for improving the oil. I believe that not all vehicles are meticulously maintained and can benefit from some cleaning. I also believe that oil is blended with corporate earnings on the top of the list. So a little tweaking won't hurt, especially with one of the better products. As always opinions vary.
When molakule said..
Quote:
such that you can justify aftermarket additives are needed because we formulators left out a component
I would think he included detergents also.
Many synthetics claim to have very good cleaning effects due to their ester content so why add more ester in ARX and unbalance the blenders formula?
I agree with you. Its because we want to clean the engine but he cant have it both ways, the formula has everything in it the engine needs or it doesn't.
I will wait for him to post but the way i see it is if ARX could provide some benefit by adding additional cleaning compounds then its certainly possible other additives may also.
I say ARX is an additive simply because it was not present in the oils original formula, it is added after the fact.
Quote:
such that you can justify aftermarket additives are needed because we formulators left out a component
I would think he included detergents also.
Many synthetics claim to have very good cleaning effects due to their ester content so why add more ester in ARX and unbalance the blenders formula?
I agree with you. Its because we want to clean the engine but he cant have it both ways, the formula has everything in it the engine needs or it doesn't.
I will wait for him to post but the way i see it is if ARX could provide some benefit by adding additional cleaning compounds then its certainly possible other additives may also.
I say ARX is an additive simply because it was not present in the oils original formula, it is added after the fact.
I think the real answer is that ordinary motor oil, or espensive motor oil if a person really wants to take good care of a vehicle, is the road to travel.
But oil supplements might become useful or necessary in some situations. For example, some sort of cleaner might be useful for a high mileage engine. And supplements like LubroMoly or Lubegard might be useful for providing a useful extra layer of protection and wear reduction.
If there is solid enough evidence that supplemetns like LubroMoly and Lubegard really work, what is wrong with adding that little bit of extra protection?
But again, the main road is just using good quality motor oil.
But oil supplements might become useful or necessary in some situations. For example, some sort of cleaner might be useful for a high mileage engine. And supplements like LubroMoly or Lubegard might be useful for providing a useful extra layer of protection and wear reduction.
If there is solid enough evidence that supplemetns like LubroMoly and Lubegard really work, what is wrong with adding that little bit of extra protection?
But again, the main road is just using good quality motor oil.
Originally Posted By: m6pwr
Originally Posted By: Gebo
In my engines and gas tank I have used every product you can imagine over the last 30 years.
Is it possible that in using different products in succession, we are actually hurting ourselves as some products may actually hurt the effectiveness of another product? Le't say we are using "X" on one OCI and then following with "Y" on the next OCI. Could the residual "X" left in the engine interfere with the "Y"?
Maybe we would be better off having a straight oil run between treatments?
I think the answer for motor oil may be "yes" in some specific instances tho it would take a formulator to explain why.
I disagree. The additive is highly diluted in the engine oil to begin with. After that oil drained there won't be enough additive left in the small amount of remaining oil to affect anything.
Originally Posted By: Gebo
In my engines and gas tank I have used every product you can imagine over the last 30 years.
Is it possible that in using different products in succession, we are actually hurting ourselves as some products may actually hurt the effectiveness of another product? Le't say we are using "X" on one OCI and then following with "Y" on the next OCI. Could the residual "X" left in the engine interfere with the "Y"?
Maybe we would be better off having a straight oil run between treatments?
I think the answer for motor oil may be "yes" in some specific instances tho it would take a formulator to explain why.
I disagree. The additive is highly diluted in the engine oil to begin with. After that oil drained there won't be enough additive left in the small amount of remaining oil to affect anything.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Sticky