CBS NEWS SPECIAL REPORT

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Brett Miller:
I just love when Kerry runs the ads about Bush sending jobs overseas when HEINZ makes 80% of their products OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES!. He talks out of both sides of his mouth to suit the tone of the day. Example....In 1997 he took the stand that the US should take whatever preemptive measures are necessary in Iraq...quite contrary to what he says now. I was at a conference last week where General Schwarzkopf spoke and I was reminded he earned 2 purple hearts for going to war 4 times. The fact that John Kerry has 3 purple hearts compared to the Generals 2 is a slap in the face. This country is going to be in serious trouble in John Scary is elected. Sorry about the rant but Kerry makes my skin crawl.

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Politics aside (I personally don't care much for either choice myself), I can't agree with this. The entitlement criteria for each and every military award, including the Purple Heart, are clearly spelled out by law. If you are injured as defined in the law three times, you get three awards. If twice, you get two awards. Hero status, or the lack thereof, is not relevant. So, are you saying that only folks you find politically agreeable are entitled to the benefit of the law? The law only applies when you like it to? Very Clinton-esque of you, don't you think?

 

[Dan4510]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brett Miller:
I just love when Kerry runs the ads about Bush sending jobs overseas when HEINZ makes 80% of their products OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES!. He talks out of both sides of his mouth to suit the tone of the day. Example....In 1997 he took the stand that the US should take whatever preemptive measures are necessary in Iraq...quite contrary to what he says now. I was at a conference last week where General Schwarzkopf spoke and I was reminded he earned 2 purple hearts for going to war 4 times. The fact that John Kerry has 3 purple hearts compared to the Generals 2 is a slap in the face. This country is going to be in serious trouble in John Scary is elected. Sorry about the rant but Kerry makes my skin crawl.

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Politics aside (I personally don't care much for either choice myself), I can't agree with this. The entitlement criteria for each and every military award, including the Purple Heart, are clearly spelled out by law. If you are injured as defined in the law three times, you get three awards. If twice, you get two awards. Hero status, or the lack thereof, is not relevant. So, are you saying that only folks you find politically agreeable are entitled to the benefit of the law? The law only applies when you like it to? Very Clinton-esque of you, don't you think?

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IT may just be me, but I thought medals were given when the ENEMY shot you, not when you confuse the butt and barrel of the gun and nearly shoot your self...and are injured by the shrapnel created therefrom.

Not getting political, just pointing out what I think is a flaw in the reasoning.

Dan

 

[labman]

I think it is clear that Kerry abused what may have been a poorly written criterion. I get sick of this nonsense.

 

[ekpolk]

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Originally posted by labman:
I think it is clear that Kerry abused what may have been a poorly written criterion. I get sick of this nonsense.

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Newsflash. Kerry was a Lieutenant (junior grade) in the Navy. That's paygrade O-2, usually occupied by younger 20-somethings. Over my military career, I have experienced the monumental headache of serving as an adjutant on several occasions. The adjutant is the officer in a unit responsible for processing awards. Having sheparded literally hundreds of awards myself, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that the opportunity for an LTJG to come in and have any ability to influence the awards process is, in reality, virtually nil. If you're tired of nonsense, then please stop spewing it. If you've got some hard, provable facts, then bring them on. So far, all I've heard is vague unspecific accusations that to me, as a 20+ year officer, sound more like fiction than reality.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan4510:

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brett Miller:
I just love when Kerry runs the ads about Bush sending jobs overseas when HEINZ makes 80% of their products OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES!. He talks out of both sides of his mouth to suit the tone of the day. Example....In 1997 he took the stand that the US should take whatever preemptive measures are necessary in Iraq...quite contrary to what he says now. I was at a conference last week where General Schwarzkopf spoke and I was reminded he earned 2 purple hearts for going to war 4 times. The fact that John Kerry has 3 purple hearts compared to the Generals 2 is a slap in the face. This country is going to be in serious trouble in John Scary is elected. Sorry about the rant but Kerry makes my skin crawl.

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Politics aside (I personally don't care much for either choice myself), I can't agree with this. The entitlement criteria for each and every military award, including the Purple Heart, are clearly spelled out by law. If you are injured as defined in the law three times, you get three awards. If twice, you get two awards. Hero status, or the lack thereof, is not relevant. So, are you saying that only folks you find politically agreeable are entitled to the benefit of the law? The law only applies when you like it to? Very Clinton-esque of you, don't you think?

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IT may just be me, but I thought medals were given when the ENEMY shot you, not when you confuse the butt and barrel of the gun and nearly shoot your self...and are injured by the shrapnel created therefrom.

Not getting political, just pointing out what I think is a flaw in the reasoning.

Dan

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With all due respect, the flaw in your reasoning is that all awards, particularly high-profile ones like the PH, are evaluated both by a board of officers in a higher command, and by a flag (general) officer, before they are finally approved. You don't just trot down to the exchange and pick out the ribbons you like. Lt. Kerry's PHs may not match your ideal of when a PH ought to be given, but each of the three citations must have passed muster with a board and a least one Admiral. Could they all have been wrong, three times? Possible, but in mind, very unlikely. Politics is a much more plausible explanation for the attacks on these awards. And hey, at least he had the 'nads to actually go to Viet Nam.

 

[ekpolk]

Oh by the way, I am actually a standing member of the Fourth Marine Aircraft Wing Awards Board myself, and as such, I get to screen a dozen or so proposed citations each week. I can't disclose specifics of our deliberations, of course, but I can assure you that we are not a rubber stamp. I have a very hard time envisioning any board remotely like ours giving anyone an easy pass, especially on an awd like the PH.

 

[Terry]

Thanks ekpolk, for your current,informed, insightful, and firsthand views on the subject !

I wish we could get more of that kind of input from the active oil company/formulators ( who lurk here) when we ask questions about their lubricants!

 

[Terry]

Mods or Houston we have a problem here, please delete all but one of these things, I think I am experiencing PC meltdown.

 

[Dan4510]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
Oh by the way, I am actually a standing member of the Fourth Marine Aircraft Wing Awards Board myself, and as such, I get to screen a dozen or so proposed citations each week. I can't disclose specifics of our deliberations, of course, but I can assure you that we are not a rubber stamp. I have a very hard time envisioning any board remotely like ours giving anyone an easy pass, especially on an awd like the PH.

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May be, but as with all things, boards change over time. I ask the question: would your board give someone a PH for having screwed up on manual of arms so bad they had to pick shrapnel from the round they put in the ground at their feet? Especailly when not under enemy fire. Is that a legitimate combat wound?

Dan

 

[labman]

Getting back to CBS's lies, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134013,00.html. Maybe I didn't look hard enough, but I couldn't find this story at www.cbsnews.com.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan4510:

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
Oh by the way, I am actually a standing member of the Fourth Marine Aircraft Wing Awards Board myself, and as such, I get to screen a dozen or so proposed citations each week. I can't disclose specifics of our deliberations, of course, but I can assure you that we are not a rubber stamp. I have a very hard time envisioning any board remotely like ours giving anyone an easy pass, especially on an awd like the PH.

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May be, but as with all things, boards change over time. I ask the question: would your board give someone a PH for having screwed up on manual of arms so bad they had to pick shrapnel from the round they put in the ground at their feet? Especailly when not under enemy fire. Is that a legitimate combat wound?

Dan

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Well, a couple thoughts in response. First, sure, boards change, not just with time, but as their members change too. But my feeling is that there is a great deal of stability in the process. We examine the facts, and compare them to the statutory requirement for the proposed award. If they match, fine. If there's legitimate doubt, we may return the proposal for clarification. No match = rejection. The process we use is the same as the process a board would have used in 1968 (we just have some help from computers).

Second, I smell enough politics with respect to this issue that I want to see some hard evidence about what happened. I simply refuse to assume that the scenario you take as a given, is actually true, without some reliable evidence. On one hand, we have the official decision, made together by at least four (and probably more) high-ranking officers, that these awards were earned and warranted. On the other, we have accounts of buffoonery that come from Bush supporters who plainly despise Kerry. Hmmmm, no reason to be suspicious about their motives or versions. . .

I am far more inclined to put my trust in official decisions made decades before they became political fodder, than I am to believe the buffoonery stories that are being tossed around now. Again, show me the proof.

Third, let's keep some perspective here. At least Sen. Kerry was willing to go and serve where he was exposed to the possibility of earning a Purple Heart (in plain english, combat service). With all due respect, I don't think you can say that about his opposition, can you?

 

[Dan4510]

Please excuse me for asking a direct question that you cant seem to answer.

Let me rephrase: Is a PH awarded to someone who inflicts their own shrapnel wound when not under enemy fire?

No politics intended..a simple questoin.

Dan

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by labman:
Getting back to CBS's lies, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134013,00.html. Maybe I didn't look hard enough, but I couldn't find this story at www.cbsnews.com.

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Your Foxnews link is dead, but this is of no consequence. On contentious issues like this, I am unwilling to believe "facts" presented by "news" outlets unless and until I see them surface, in roughly the same form, on both Fox and the left-leaning outlets. Only then can I be sure that I'm not being served a dose of either right or left wing propaganda. I don't particularly care for the taste of either. Sorry, but I'm not so gullible as to believe that Fox is any less energetic or effective at axe grinding than the left-leaning outlets.

 

[Dan4510]

Both sites show the story on their front webpage. Controversy over.

Dan

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan4510:
Please excuse me for asking a direct question that you cant seem to answer.

Let me rephrase: Is a PH awarded to someone who inflicts their own shrapnel wound when not under enemy fire?

No politics intended..a simple questoin.

Dan

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Under those facts, the answer would, of course, be, "no".

Now, will you answer the simple question that you've been dodging so far: where's the reliable evidence (no political propaganda "info" please) that your scenario is actually what happened with Sen. Kerry?

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan4510:
Both sites show the story on their front webpage. Controversy over.

Dan

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If only life and the world were so simple. But you know they are not. Mutual reporting of controversy obviously does not equate to agreement on facts. Controversy NOT over.

 

[Dan4510]

Can honestly say that I have no reliable evidence that it did or did not happen that I have researched. However, one can draw highly probable conclusions from circumstantial evidence.

Three PHs were awarded in an astoundingly short period of time, on the order of having been a supersolder if true. If this probable? No. Do I think Kerry is a supersolder? No.

I watched part of his testimony on CSPAN denouncing the Vietnam war. I have high level suspicions of anyone that talks out of both sides of their mouth--remember he is building his campagine on vietnam war medals and now cant seem to stand the scrutiny.

I hate all politicians equally--republican or democrat, they are all dedicated to coercing money from some to buy votes from others.

Dan

I am closing this thread due to it turning into a political hash.