Car Care Nut -Why you shouldn't wait 100k mi to change coolant on a Toyota UR series V8.

He goes back and forth (remember, I said that he doesn’t get to the point?) between “design flaw” and “change your coolant, this was caused by acidic coolant”.

So, even he isn’t sure it’s a design flaw. He says that, then backs off and talks about coolant.

Further, if it’s a design flaw - why is the engine still in spec (for warp) after 200,000 miles?

So, which is it? A problem caused by lack of coolant maintenance? Or a design flaw?

He’s not sure, so I don’t see how anybody else could be.
I'm pretty confident he said it's predecessor would go 500k-600k no problem. It's in the transcript.

Is it a design flaw? I have no idea. Maybe he meant the coolant change interval is part of the "design". Doesn't really matter. The video was pretty straightforward. This guy's a mechanic, not Hemingway.
 
He also said that about 5.7 in Sequoia video.
I haven't seen it. Maybe he's changing his tune due to this new trend. Hopefully he reports it to Toyota, since they just released 102,000 totally defective engines into the wild. Where there's smoke, there's fire.
 
I'm pretty confident he said it's predecessor would go 500k-600k no problem. It's in the transcript.

Is it a design flaw? I have no idea. Maybe he meant the coolant change interval is part of the "design". Doesn't really matter. The video was pretty straightforward. This guy's a mechanic, not Hemingway.
Again - do those engines go 500k-600k “no problem” without a coolant change?

That’s what he said, that “they would go 500,000 to 600,000 no problem” - but he failed to specify under what circumstances.

Because his initial criticism of this engine was that the coolant became acidic and caused the head gasket failure. And that the interval was too long.

But then he goes off a tangent, and you can’t tell if he means that the engine is fatally flawed, or that you have to maintain the coolant, because the end of the video he tells the owners to change the coolant more frequently.

You don’t have to be Hemingway, but it would be nice if his point was clear. It would be nice if he could get to the point.

It would be nice if he, as folks learned when they learned to write, started out with the important part, then added supporting detail, instead of taking us along in a meandering, wandering, stream of consciousness, articulation of vague concerns.
 
Again - do those engines go 500k-600k “no problem” without a coolant change?

That’s what he said, that “they would go 500,000 to 600,000 no problem” - but he failed to specify under what circumstances.

Because his initial criticism of this engine was that the coolant became acidic and caused the head gasket failure. And that the interval was too long.

But then he goes off a tangent, and you can’t tell if he means that the engine is fatally flawed, or that you have to maintain the coolant, because the end of the video he tells the owners to change the coolant more frequently.

You don’t have to be Hemingway, but it would be nice if his point was clear. It would be nice if he could get to the point.

It would be nice if he, as folks learned when they learned to write, started out with the important part, then added supporting detail, instead of taking us along in a meandering, wandering, stream of consciousness, articulation of vague concerns.
I get you don't like the format of a YouTube video. We'd be here all day if he were to enumerate every permutation of possible outcomes for this engine based on it's service history.

FWIW, there's a summary just beneath the video:

"Toyota's outgoing V8 the UR series engine is often touted as one of the most reliable engines that many folks are upset that it is leaving and being replaced with a V6 Twin Turbo. However lately this V8 in it's multiple configurations is developing an issue that is really concerning.

The UR series engines are suffering from lack of coolant service or extended coolant service which is causing head gasket failures. Most folks are not aware how expensive these engines are to repair if they are damaged"
 
  • Like
Reactions: D60
I’ve never said he was lying.

I’ve never said he was dumb.

I’m not the one questioning his intelligence, or defending it, we are talking about the content here, his video.

His video makes conclusions that are unsupported by the facts he presents.
I feel the same way. His RCA is very superficial and biased and lacks data to support his conclusions. You need to be unbiased for a proper RCA and CCN immediately jumps to inadequate PM without sufficient data to support this conclusion. CCN would be a lot more watchable for me if he took a root cause analysis training course and then made videos using RCA tools keeping his biases to a minimum.
 
I'm pretty confident he said it's predecessor would go 500k-600k no problem. It's in the transcript.

Is it a design flaw? I have no idea. Maybe he meant the coolant change interval is part of the "design". Doesn't really matter. The video was pretty straightforward. This guy's a mechanic, not Hemingway.
Did some of the predecessors go 500K no problem? Maybe; could be. But likely extremely few without rebuilds.
In statistics we call those outliers; you throw them out of analysis because they cloud (or invalidate) otherwise valid conclusions.

A mis-statement at best and possibly clickbait. Anyways, it's Youtube, so each of us can take it for what it's worth.
All good.
 
Did some of the predecessors go 500K no problem? Maybe; could be. But likely extremely few without rebuilds.
In statistics we call those outliers; you throw them out of analysis because they cloud (or invalidate) otherwise valid conclusions.

A mis-statement at best and possibly clickbait. Anyways, it's Youtube, so each of us can take it for what it's worth.
All good.
I was on the forum 8 years ago, and was surprised guys there were stockpiling LS430s. Some had three and a whole bunch 2.

Again it was minimum $30k and nominally $40’s. At the time I was thinking variety is the spice of life, why 3 cars all the same? Don’t think many need rebuilds to reach 500k. One is well documented at 1,000,000. Time is the enemy, not mileage. Whereas with the newer ones, maybe mileage is the enemy, not time.

Another car that sails through 500k is the Acura TSX, mid 2000’s. It’s thirsty and uses premium, has no torque. But 500k it does.
 
shouldn't there be at least some sign of corrosion somewhere?

I also wondered what he's using to accurately measure tenths with the engine in place? Anyone know?

Is he just laying a straight edge down and using feelers?
That is what he did on another video. I could see how this could be close, or close enough, but in the context of the video, he is talking 10ths, and that would be very hard to get out of feeler and a straight edge.
But since he failed to provide the maintenance history of the vehicles to which he is referring, any conclusions about the cause, and prevention, are, like his video, speculative.
I did not see anything to conclude that the coolant was the culprit at all, did you?
but that does not make him 100% correct all the time.
very true, he is a mechanic who make money from fixing problems on cars, even if the problem really does not exist in reality
but it would be nice if his point was clear. It would be nice if he could get to the point.
Then his video would be 10 secs long and he would not make any money.
 
I haven't seen it. Maybe he's changing his tune due to this new trend. Hopefully he reports it to Toyota, since they just released 102,000 totally defective engines into the wild. Where there's smoke, there's fire.
So exactly how many engines had this issue?
By the way, just to be clear. Toyota didn’t do voluntary recall of 3.4TT. It was NHTSA that made Toyota do recall!
If you think Toyota will do some recall here, good luck.
 
I was on the forum 8 years ago, and was surprised guys there were stockpiling LS430s. Some had three and a whole bunch 2.

Again it was minimum $30k and nominally $40’s. At the time I was thinking variety is the spice of life, why 3 cars all the same? Don’t think many need rebuilds to reach 500k. One is well documented at 1,000,000. Time is the enemy, not mileage. Whereas with the newer ones, maybe mileage is the enemy, not time.

Another car that sails through 500k is the Acura TSX, mid 2000’s. It’s thirsty and uses premium, has no torque. But 500k it does.
I have the 4.7 V8 in my 01 Tundra and have owned 3 2006 - 2007 TSX. Not sure I buy your 500K statement; that's pretty darn optimistic.
 
So exactly how many engines had this issue?
By the way, just to be clear. Toyota didn’t do voluntary recall of 3.4TT. It was NHTSA that made Toyota do recall!
If you think Toyota will do some recall here, good luck.
It’s hilarious imho when cars (Toyotas) have a recall to replace the clips that hold the floor mats.

Meanwhile Weathertech made (poorly) OE mats for BMW E9x. It’s the same mat for autos and manuals, so it gets caught in the clutch.

Such different philosophies to car building.
 
It’s hilarious imho when cars (Toyotas) have a recall to replace the clips that hold the floor mats.

Meanwhile Weathertech made (poorly) OE mats for BMW E9x. It’s the same mat for autos and manuals, so it gets caught in the clutch.

Such different philosophies to car building.
I don’t have that issue. If you position them properly, they stay in place. But, they could execute that better.
The reason for recall was all that stuck gas pedal which I think it never had anything to do with mats.
 
If you’ve had 3 I could see that they didn’t last for you
I think you are mistaken. We bought our beloved 06 in Dec 2006. I just passed in on to a friend, as I have too many vehicles. It's perfect. 220K.
My sister drove ours shortly after we bought it; she went back to Gig Harbor, WA and bought one. She gave it to me after I bought her an RX450h. I gave it to a friend. Beautiful black car, has maybe 120K on it now.
I bought a 2007 from the local MBZ dealer for a disabled friend. It was totaled in a parking lot. Very nice car.

The both 2007s go through a little oil, our old car does not. I just put a set of Michelin Pilot A/S on; Acrua really got this one right. But 500K? I would be surprised. Our TSX had a steady diet of M1 5w30 every 5K, or less. I miss this one.
1725844588437.jpg
 
If the problem takes 200,000 miles to manifest itself, is it really a design flaw?

Particularly if, as CCN claims, that these gasket failures are caused by acidic coolant?

For the vehicle in question, both the block and heads were flat enough to be in spec.

So, if there was a core shift, why would they still be within specification after 200,000 miles?
"If the problem takes 200,000 miles to manifest itself, is it really a design flaw?" Yes, It's a design flaw for other reasons. If your measure is to simply make it to 200K miles, then it's not a design flaw to you. However, there are Toyota customers who want and achieve more than 200K miles without having to make a decision to spend anywhere from $8000 to $24,000.

"Particularly if, as CCN claims, that these gasket failures are caused by acidic coolant?" Acidic content explains the loss of coating. It doesn't necessarily explain why the block and/or cylinder head warp or neither one of them warp. As an engineer, I would label acidic content a contributing cause and look for other contributing issues. For example, why is coating failure always in this location? There are other cooling holes with the same geometry in all the other adjacent cylinder combinations and based on a sample size of 12-13 head gaskets the CCN has in his possession, coating failure doesn't occur in any other adjacent cylinders despite having the same cooling hole.

"For the vehicle in question, both the block and heads were flat enough to be in spec." I've addressed in that issue in 2 or 3 posts. I'm focusing on the design issue. There is a root cause to be found or a combination of contributing causes. Toyota is probably using similar technology now and in the future. Can this design issue carry over to present and future production of smaller engines?

"So, if there was a core shift, why would they still be within specification after 200,000 miles?" It's a matter of tolerance distribution over a larger sample size if the issue is cooling liner. Is the cooling liner a little bit out of tolerance or a lot on this particular engine. Or, the liners may be OK and something else is the root cause.

When I was working, I solved a rather expensive production issue with a gas turbine engine blade that had a high rejection rate because raw castings frequently failed to flow enough total cooling air to pass inspection. Several "fixes" that worked in the past on other airfoils failed to resolve the issue. My analysis showed that a change of just 0.0015 inches on a feature inside the blade would be sufficient to pass more raw castings, and the failure rate was greatly reduced.
 
I feel the same way. His RCA is very superficial and biased and lacks data to support his conclusions. You need to be unbiased for a proper RCA and CCN immediately jumps to inadequate PM without sufficient data to support this conclusion. CCN would be a lot more watchable for me if he took a root cause analysis training course and then made videos using RCA tools keeping his biases to a minimum.
I doubt CCN has had RCA training.

I sent an email to CCN to find out if Toyota gathers failure information from experienced and certified Toyota mechanics. I included very brief descriptions of other potential root causes for head gasket failure. If CCN has connections with Toyota, then perhaps he may be willing to pass along what he has observed along with a few ideas on the root cause. CCN has a shop to run and he has taken the issue as far as he can on his own.

When I worked in aerospace, we had division that performed all engine overhauls and technicians gathered data on which parts failed and how they failed. Engineering then analyzed the effect on bottom line profit when the customer paid for "power by the hour" or if we covered the expense of down time and engine replacement. Items that cost the company or our customer the most would get priority analysis to resolve. I would think Toyota has a similar program, and if so, I'm wondering about the process, hence the email to CCN.

If I was a Toyota engineer, I would propose acquiring a few engine blocks that either failed spec or were too close to failure and flow test them to see if the coolant hole between the left bank rear adjacent cylinders flows either more than or less than the other coolant holes in similar positions. I would justify an investigation if the same technology is employed on relatively newer engines with less fleet mileage or engines currently in the design cycle. Such engines most likely have lower design margins due to the need to raise fuel economy and power.

In my aerospace career, I was involved with an interesting and expensive engine failure. I designed parts that provided cooling air to High Pressure Turbine blades. Another engineer designed the blades. The engine spectacularly failed by burning the blades in its first test in front of our customer, the USAF. Management came to me and said, I was responsible for the failure because, (1) I designed the parts that sent coolant to the blades and (2) the blades passed flow tests thereby certifying them for use. I used test data on the parts I designed along with analysis of variation to show that statistically, the root cause of the failure was in the blade itself with better than 95% confidence. I proposed and conducted flow testing that isolated each cooling circuit within the blade because one of those circuits could well be the root cause. Testing determined that one location within the blade was flowing about 60% low while other portions of the blade flowed a little bit more than design intent, such that the total blade cooling flow was within spec and consequently a design issue was not detected during production. Management then gave me responsibility to redesign the blade, monitor production and test it. The next engine test proved there is adequate airfoil cooling with the redesigned blade. I also proposed crucial changes to the design process to prevent this kind of failure on future engine programs. Blades and vanes in a gas turbine engine have the greatest impact on program cost because the time to design, procure, machine and certify these parts is longer than any other part in the engine. Moreover, warranty costs are very high.

I have a strong interest in the CCN video as it brings up many memories of design issues and failures I worked on during my career. I studied internal combustion engine design in graduate school with plans to apply for work with one of the Big Three when I graduated 45 years ago. I changed my mind and went to work on gas turbine engines.

I strongly believe CCN has identified something that deserves a Root Cause Analysis that includes assessment of impact on current and future Toyota engine design and production. Afterall, Kaizen is a core principle in the Toyota Production System and obviously, any issue involving the engine block is expensive for either Toyota or a Toyota customer.
 
Last edited:
Do service advisors make commission off repairs they book? That's wild if they do.
Not at all places. I made $8.50 an hour at the Ford dealer straight hourly. minimum wage was like 8 at the time. When I left there for the GM dealer it was base salary and commission which worked out to around 13/hr average. Wild I know. I could almost make a living off that.
 
Back
Top Bottom