Vw temp sensors had a high failure rate,I know I had one of them.
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Cannot find service interval for Audi coolant
- Thread starter dparm
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dparm
Thread starter
Here's something interesting...
The G12++ coolants all have lower boiling points, about 20% less! (at 1:1 with water)
OEM G12: 264 deg
OEM G12++: 228 deg
Are the silicates lowering it? The G12 formulas do not contain the silicates, the ++ ones do.
The G12++ coolants all have lower boiling points, about 20% less! (at 1:1 with water)
OEM G12: 264 deg
OEM G12++: 228 deg
Are the silicates lowering it? The G12 formulas do not contain the silicates, the ++ ones do.
dparm
Thread starter
I'm just going by what's printed on the bottle. Motul says this is at 1.5bar.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
I do not find the expression "safe assumption" very confidence aspiring!
Others have pointed out in this thread that it matches the VW/Audi specs. I have no hard evidence either way. If it does, great. If it doesn't, there's no indication that it's that different. For my application, a VW/Audi parts number or spec number is not given. It just calls for phosphate free, which is more of a European issue than a North American issue due to water quality. I only use RO water, in any event. If Audi or VW wishes to specify a proprietary coolant that only they sell, they can provide that for free for their American customers, as per American law.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
You need the timing belt, the accessory belt, the thermostat, a couple of idle roller and a belt tensioner, RTV sealant, and coolant. The parts alone are $200 to $250. If you have the TB service performed at a shop, you are in for 8-12 hours labor at $85 to $140 per hour labor. Do you replace really only the timing belt?
No, I wouldn't do just the timing belt. The timing belt is $20, the accessory belt is $8, the thermostat is about $15 (O-ring included). RTV sealant is cheap. If one is doing it oneself, the costliest item in this repair is the coolant, if one goes for Pentosin. If one goes for Dex-Cool, the coolant costs are far less.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
I don't know about Dan, but I can find Pentosin at my local 76 gas station.
The point being, however, that just because one pays a premium price for a car does not mean one need pay a premium price for all parts and consumables. An Audi costs more, because one has, at least, a perception of getting a little more for one's money. Few will compare an A8 to a Focus. Is Pentosin better than Dex-Cool? Perhaps, but it's just as likely that they are close to identical. Is it worth the price premium? Not likely. When one looks at Ford, I cannot justify buying G-05 from a Ford dealership, when it's Zerex G-05 at double the price of the Zerex bottle.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
The Pentosin products I buy are "Made in Germany." Does Zerex produce in Germany?
I'm not sure, and it really doesn't matter to me one way or another.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
I consider buying the OEM parts and supplies for a $40k vehicle sensible. The additional cost of OEM coolant is certainly marginal, as I have already explained.
That depends upon where one lives. I would suggest that Pentosin isn't readily available to everyone in the U.S. It might be reasonably available in big cities, both in Canada and the U.S., but I would suggest that getting Pentosin in Minot, ND, would be a lot harder than getting it in Toronto, ON. In a place like Minot or Regina, one is quite likely stuck with an online distributor (if one wants a good price and has patience) or an Audi/VW dealer if one wants to pay the premium but get it in a hurry.
I'd gladly use Pentosin if I could readily get it. Last time I tried to order it, my supplier had 1 bottle. They now have zero.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
You are certainly at liberty to do whatever you want to your vehicle.
And until Pentosin is more readily available and available at a more reasonable price, I'm going to stick with dexclones.
Oddly enough, a nearby Ford dealership is using dexclones for their service, even on unsealed cooling systems, instead of their factory recommended G-05. I don't think a dexclone is the best option for an unsealed cooling system. In my sealed cooling system, I'm not worried.
I do not find the expression "safe assumption" very confidence aspiring!
Others have pointed out in this thread that it matches the VW/Audi specs. I have no hard evidence either way. If it does, great. If it doesn't, there's no indication that it's that different. For my application, a VW/Audi parts number or spec number is not given. It just calls for phosphate free, which is more of a European issue than a North American issue due to water quality. I only use RO water, in any event. If Audi or VW wishes to specify a proprietary coolant that only they sell, they can provide that for free for their American customers, as per American law.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
You need the timing belt, the accessory belt, the thermostat, a couple of idle roller and a belt tensioner, RTV sealant, and coolant. The parts alone are $200 to $250. If you have the TB service performed at a shop, you are in for 8-12 hours labor at $85 to $140 per hour labor. Do you replace really only the timing belt?
No, I wouldn't do just the timing belt. The timing belt is $20, the accessory belt is $8, the thermostat is about $15 (O-ring included). RTV sealant is cheap. If one is doing it oneself, the costliest item in this repair is the coolant, if one goes for Pentosin. If one goes for Dex-Cool, the coolant costs are far less.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
I don't know about Dan, but I can find Pentosin at my local 76 gas station.
The point being, however, that just because one pays a premium price for a car does not mean one need pay a premium price for all parts and consumables. An Audi costs more, because one has, at least, a perception of getting a little more for one's money. Few will compare an A8 to a Focus. Is Pentosin better than Dex-Cool? Perhaps, but it's just as likely that they are close to identical. Is it worth the price premium? Not likely. When one looks at Ford, I cannot justify buying G-05 from a Ford dealership, when it's Zerex G-05 at double the price of the Zerex bottle.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
The Pentosin products I buy are "Made in Germany." Does Zerex produce in Germany?
I'm not sure, and it really doesn't matter to me one way or another.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
I consider buying the OEM parts and supplies for a $40k vehicle sensible. The additional cost of OEM coolant is certainly marginal, as I have already explained.
That depends upon where one lives. I would suggest that Pentosin isn't readily available to everyone in the U.S. It might be reasonably available in big cities, both in Canada and the U.S., but I would suggest that getting Pentosin in Minot, ND, would be a lot harder than getting it in Toronto, ON. In a place like Minot or Regina, one is quite likely stuck with an online distributor (if one wants a good price and has patience) or an Audi/VW dealer if one wants to pay the premium but get it in a hurry.
I'd gladly use Pentosin if I could readily get it. Last time I tried to order it, my supplier had 1 bottle. They now have zero.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
You are certainly at liberty to do whatever you want to your vehicle.
And until Pentosin is more readily available and available at a more reasonable price, I'm going to stick with dexclones.
Oddly enough, a nearby Ford dealership is using dexclones for their service, even on unsealed cooling systems, instead of their factory recommended G-05. I don't think a dexclone is the best option for an unsealed cooling system. In my sealed cooling system, I'm not worried.
Originally Posted By: Dan55
Vw temp sensors had a high failure rate,I know I had one of them.
Yes, but the "why" is the part of the equation that's missing. Audi had a lot of problems with temperature sensors, too. It had nothing to do with coolants causing any problems. It had to do with poor soldering jobs and an over-reliance on electronics. For mine, the OE parts was changed from a sensor with a four prong plug (1 live 12 V) to one with a three prong plug that uses a wax pellet instead of a bunch of electronics. Poor soldering jobs from the OEM were also part of the issue. The one I changed out, the probe end was clean as a whistle, even after months of dexclone.
Dexclones have their applications. They're certainly not universal, but the way some people talk, one would think one was using concentrated hydrochloric acid as a coolant.
Vw temp sensors had a high failure rate,I know I had one of them.
Yes, but the "why" is the part of the equation that's missing. Audi had a lot of problems with temperature sensors, too. It had nothing to do with coolants causing any problems. It had to do with poor soldering jobs and an over-reliance on electronics. For mine, the OE parts was changed from a sensor with a four prong plug (1 live 12 V) to one with a three prong plug that uses a wax pellet instead of a bunch of electronics. Poor soldering jobs from the OEM were also part of the issue. The one I changed out, the probe end was clean as a whistle, even after months of dexclone.
Dexclones have their applications. They're certainly not universal, but the way some people talk, one would think one was using concentrated hydrochloric acid as a coolant.
Hi Garak,
Originally Posted By: Garak
Others have pointed out in this thread that it matches the VW/Audi specs.
That does not even constitute circumstantial evidence.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I have no hard evidence either way. If it does, great. If it doesn't, there's no indication that it's that different.
While G12 and Dex-Cool are OAT coolants, G12 has been discontinued a s fill for VAG vehicles. G12 Plus and G12 Plus Plus are hybrid OAT coolants, which uses organic acids and silicates. Apparently VW believes G12 was an inferior product.
Originally Posted By: Garak
For my application, a VW/Audi parts number or spec number is not given.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Others have pointed out in this thread that it matches the VW/Audi specs.
That does not even constitute circumstantial evidence.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I have no hard evidence either way. If it does, great. If it doesn't, there's no indication that it's that different.
While G12 and Dex-Cool are OAT coolants, G12 has been discontinued a s fill for VAG vehicles. G12 Plus and G12 Plus Plus are hybrid OAT coolants, which uses organic acids and silicates. Apparently VW believes G12 was an inferior product.
Originally Posted By: Garak
For my application, a VW/Audi parts number or spec number is not given.
That is strange.
Garak said:It just calls for phosphate free, which is more of a European issue than a North American issue due to water quality.
Phosphates are a water pollutant. That is why, for example, European detergents and coolant, commonly do not contain phosphates. Phosphates promote algae growth. That's why also regions in the USA, for example, Washington State, have banned detergents containing phosphates.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I only use RO water, in any event. If Audi or VW wishes to specify a proprietary coolant that only they sell, they can provide that for free for their American customers, as per American law.
Pentosin is not a VAG product. It is commonly available online, and in metropolitan areas.
Originally Posted By: Garak
No, I wouldn't do just the timing belt. The timing belt is $20, the accessory belt is $8, the thermostat is about $15 (O-ring included). RTV sealant is cheap. If one is doing it oneself, the costliest item in this repair is the coolant, if one goes for Pentosin. If one goes for Dex-Cool, the coolant costs are far less.
You left out a goo part of the parts that should be replaced when the TB job is done. The least expensive TB kits from places like ECS Tuning and Blauparts are around $200.
Originally Posted By: Garak
The point being, however, that just because one pays a premium price for a car does not mean one need pay a premium price for all parts and consumables.
So "perception" is okay when it comes to buying the car, but not when buying OEM fluids?
Originally Posted By: Garak
An Audi costs more, because one has, at least, a perception of getting a little more for one's money.
But springing for OEM fluids will not do the same? You cannot really have it both ways now, can you?
Originally Posted By: Garak
Few will compare an A8 to a Focus. Is Pentosin better than Dex-Cool?
Does Pentosin meet Ford specs?
Originally Posted By: Garak
Perhaps, but it's just as likely that they are close to identical. Is it worth the price premium? Not likely.
Faith-base decision-making when it comes to car maintenance is a personal matter.
Originally Posted By: Garak
When one looks at Ford, I cannot justify buying G-05 from a Ford dealership, when it's Zerex G-05 at double the price of the Zerex bottle.
So Ford marks up the identical product. I am glad VW does not the same thing.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I'm not sure, and it really doesn't matter to me one way or another.
It matters because you said that there's a "Pentosin label on a bottle of dexcool." That's possible only if Zerex produces in Germany.
Originally Posted By: Garak
That depends upon where one lives. I would suggest that Pentosin isn't readily available to everyone in the U.S. It might be reasonably available in big cities, both in Canada and the U.S., but I would suggest that getting Pentosin in Minot, ND, would be a lot harder than getting it in Toronto, ON. In a place like Minot or Regina, one is quite likely stuck with an online distributor (if one wants a good price and has patience) or an Audi/VW dealer if one wants to pay the premium but get it in a hurry.
One has to hope that out in the boonies no more pressing car trouble happens than one coolant change every 5 years.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I'd gladly use Pentosin if I could readily get it. Last time I tried to order it, my supplier had 1 bottle. They now have zero.
That last bottle may pop up on Ebay!
Originally Posted By: Garak
And until Pentosin is more readily available and available at a more reasonable price, I'm going to stick with dexclones.
I still do not understand how Canada's supply issues affect Dan.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Oddly enough, a nearby Ford dealership is using dexclones for their service, even on unsealed cooling systems, instead of their factory recommended G-05. I don't think a dexclone is the best option for an unsealed cooling system. In my sealed cooling system, I'm not worried.
Most sealed coolant systems become eventually unsealed, usually due to lack of preventive maintenance, and aeration will quickly become an issue.
Cheers,
-J
dparm
Thread starter
Pentosin is possible via mail-order and some indie German car shops. But the guys on Audizine proved that the OEM Audi/VW stuff is indeed Pentosin...it's printed right on the label and the specs match perfectly. And it costs MORE than the readily available dealer stuff.
It really looks like there's no compelling reason NOT to get the G12++ over anything else. The Motul stuff is basically the same performance for more money.
It really looks like there's no compelling reason NOT to get the G12++ over anything else. The Motul stuff is basically the same performance for more money.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
That does not even constitute circumstantial evidence.
When I have time, I will check some specifications on the physical bottles. I don't have any of them in front of me, so I can't do that.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
While G12 and Dex-Cool are OAT coolants, G12 has been discontinued a s fill for VAG vehicles. G12 Plus and G12 Plus Plus are hybrid OAT coolants, which uses organic acids and silicates. Apparently VW believes G12 was an inferior product.
That's hard to say. Inferior in what way? G12 certainly wouldn't be inferior for water pump life.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
Phosphates are a water pollutant. That is why, for example, European detergents and coolant, commonly do not contain phosphates. Phosphates promote algae growth. That's why also regions in the USA, for example, Washington State, have banned detergents containing phosphates.
It's true, it just calls for phosphate free antifreeze. The pollution is an issue. Another issue is compatibility with hard water.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
You left out a goo part of the parts that should be replaced when the TB job is done. The least expensive TB kits from places like ECS Tuning and Blauparts are around $200.
Not really. Even including upper and lower rad hoses, any miscellaneous gaskets, and so forth, that doesn't add much more than an extra $50. The labour is the pain, not the parts.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
So "perception" is okay when it comes to buying the car, but not when buying OEM fluids?
That all depends upon what the OEM fluid actually is. If an A8 were simply a rebadged Golf, I would suspect A8 sales would slide. A rebadged coolant is not worth a price premium. VW here would definitely charge more than what I would be able to buy Pentosin for, if my supplier were not out of stock.
Would you pay $10 for a quart of GC that was relabelled as an Audi or VW product, instead of $7 at the store?
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
Does Pentosin meet Ford specs?
I could answer that if I had a bottle in front of me.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Perhaps, but it's just as likely that they are close to identical. Is it worth the price premium? Not likely.
Faith-base decision-making when it comes to car maintenance is a personal matter.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
It matters because you said that there's a "Pentosin label on a bottle of dexcool." That's possible only if Zerex produces in Germany.
No, under a couple possibilities. Havoline, if I recall correctly, makes the original Dex-Cool. Prestone and Zerex are also licensed manufacturers of Dex-Cool. Other companies also make dexclones, which are very similar. Production in Germany does not preclude the possibility of a coolant being a dexclone, or, for that matter, actually meeting Dex-Cool standards without the licensing. As far as I know, all G-05 is made by Zerex. The same does not hold true for Dex-Cool.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
One has to hope that out in the boonies no more pressing car trouble happens than one coolant change every 5 years.
Them's the breaks. My online supplier gets me German OEM parts faster and cheaper then the local Audi dealership, if the locals are even on the ball enough to find the correct part number. Let's see, they wanted somewhere around $35 for an alternator belt, with an up to 9 day wait to bring the product in from the U.S., when I got it from Ontario for $8, with free shipping with other parts ordered, shipped in 5 days. They also didn't know what an alternator adjuster bolt was, and when they figured it out, wanted $12 per, as opposed to $2.50 per online. $450 per headlight assembly from the dealer, under $200 a piece for the identical Hella part elsewhere.
I wouldn't let the local dealership do my timing belt even if they offered to do it for free. I guarantee I'd have no car for two weeks. They're definitely not going to be given the opportunity to do a flush and fill for me, either.
That does not even constitute circumstantial evidence.
When I have time, I will check some specifications on the physical bottles. I don't have any of them in front of me, so I can't do that.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
While G12 and Dex-Cool are OAT coolants, G12 has been discontinued a s fill for VAG vehicles. G12 Plus and G12 Plus Plus are hybrid OAT coolants, which uses organic acids and silicates. Apparently VW believes G12 was an inferior product.
That's hard to say. Inferior in what way? G12 certainly wouldn't be inferior for water pump life.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
Phosphates are a water pollutant. That is why, for example, European detergents and coolant, commonly do not contain phosphates. Phosphates promote algae growth. That's why also regions in the USA, for example, Washington State, have banned detergents containing phosphates.
It's true, it just calls for phosphate free antifreeze. The pollution is an issue. Another issue is compatibility with hard water.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
You left out a goo part of the parts that should be replaced when the TB job is done. The least expensive TB kits from places like ECS Tuning and Blauparts are around $200.
Not really. Even including upper and lower rad hoses, any miscellaneous gaskets, and so forth, that doesn't add much more than an extra $50. The labour is the pain, not the parts.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
So "perception" is okay when it comes to buying the car, but not when buying OEM fluids?
That all depends upon what the OEM fluid actually is. If an A8 were simply a rebadged Golf, I would suspect A8 sales would slide. A rebadged coolant is not worth a price premium. VW here would definitely charge more than what I would be able to buy Pentosin for, if my supplier were not out of stock.
Would you pay $10 for a quart of GC that was relabelled as an Audi or VW product, instead of $7 at the store?
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
Does Pentosin meet Ford specs?
I could answer that if I had a bottle in front of me.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Perhaps, but it's just as likely that they are close to identical. Is it worth the price premium? Not likely.
Faith-base decision-making when it comes to car maintenance is a personal matter.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
It matters because you said that there's a "Pentosin label on a bottle of dexcool." That's possible only if Zerex produces in Germany.
No, under a couple possibilities. Havoline, if I recall correctly, makes the original Dex-Cool. Prestone and Zerex are also licensed manufacturers of Dex-Cool. Other companies also make dexclones, which are very similar. Production in Germany does not preclude the possibility of a coolant being a dexclone, or, for that matter, actually meeting Dex-Cool standards without the licensing. As far as I know, all G-05 is made by Zerex. The same does not hold true for Dex-Cool.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
One has to hope that out in the boonies no more pressing car trouble happens than one coolant change every 5 years.
Them's the breaks. My online supplier gets me German OEM parts faster and cheaper then the local Audi dealership, if the locals are even on the ball enough to find the correct part number. Let's see, they wanted somewhere around $35 for an alternator belt, with an up to 9 day wait to bring the product in from the U.S., when I got it from Ontario for $8, with free shipping with other parts ordered, shipped in 5 days. They also didn't know what an alternator adjuster bolt was, and when they figured it out, wanted $12 per, as opposed to $2.50 per online. $450 per headlight assembly from the dealer, under $200 a piece for the identical Hella part elsewhere.
I wouldn't let the local dealership do my timing belt even if they offered to do it for free. I guarantee I'd have no car for two weeks. They're definitely not going to be given the opportunity to do a flush and fill for me, either.
I checked the Zerex bottles at Walmart. They say that Dex-Cool is factory approved for Audi from 1996 on. They say that G-05 is factory approved for years previous.
Their website, however, says only that both are recommended for those years, and do not have factory approval. Check http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/Zerex_CoolantChart.pdf for reference.
I have no idea why there is a discrepancy between the bottles and the website. I did not have time to jot down specifications; I was there right before close.
In any case, I have no problems with people wishing to use Pentosin. I, too, would like to use it. I just have a problem locating it, and I have an issue paying the dealer's exorbitant prices. If my supplier eventually gets some in stock, or I can come across it at a local retailer, I would gladly purchase it.
What are your thoughts as to someone choosing G12, G12+, or moving to the newest specification? As for G-05, that was another preferred option; however, the lack of a concentrate at a civilized price precludes that.
Their website, however, says only that both are recommended for those years, and do not have factory approval. Check http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/Zerex_CoolantChart.pdf for reference.
I have no idea why there is a discrepancy between the bottles and the website. I did not have time to jot down specifications; I was there right before close.
In any case, I have no problems with people wishing to use Pentosin. I, too, would like to use it. I just have a problem locating it, and I have an issue paying the dealer's exorbitant prices. If my supplier eventually gets some in stock, or I can come across it at a local retailer, I would gladly purchase it.
What are your thoughts as to someone choosing G12, G12+, or moving to the newest specification? As for G-05, that was another preferred option; however, the lack of a concentrate at a civilized price precludes that.
Well G12 is an OAT and G12++ is a silicated OAT both containing sebacic as the OAT. Sebacic is a carboxylate acid just like 2EHA, neodecanoate etc is. Havoline Dexcool contains sebacic and 2EHA, all other Dexcools contain 2EHA and usually another carboxylate like neodeconoate (Prestone dexcool) or in the case of Zerex 2EHA and molybdate (an IAT that probably is superior to silicates or phosphates).
If these G12++ applications' plastic cooling system parts can't handle dexcool then they can't G12 either and they weren't designed for OAT coolants in the first place. This is the view most of the cooling industry takes and has reported in testing. Dexcool flat works in cooling systems with a degas bottle/pressurized reservoir, and GM has proven it with millions of vehicles. If you are running the reservior dry then you have other problems besides coolant.
The real reason for all these OE and patent coolants is not really out of necessity or need but to sell their own coolant. I don't begrudge anyone for paying roughly 4x as much for these OE coolants, but there's no real proof or evidence that it makes any real difference in these cooling systems. I've looked and it just doesn't exist.
If these G12++ applications' plastic cooling system parts can't handle dexcool then they can't G12 either and they weren't designed for OAT coolants in the first place. This is the view most of the cooling industry takes and has reported in testing. Dexcool flat works in cooling systems with a degas bottle/pressurized reservoir, and GM has proven it with millions of vehicles. If you are running the reservior dry then you have other problems besides coolant.
The real reason for all these OE and patent coolants is not really out of necessity or need but to sell their own coolant. I don't begrudge anyone for paying roughly 4x as much for these OE coolants, but there's no real proof or evidence that it makes any real difference in these cooling systems. I've looked and it just doesn't exist.
Originally Posted By: dparm
What is the difference between G12 and G12+?
I'd like to know also. I would also like to know why BASF G30 seems to correspond to both G12 and G12+
What is the difference between G12 and G12+?
I'd like to know also. I would also like to know why BASF G30 seems to correspond to both G12 and G12+
Zerex also produces G12+ and G12++ (or at least they did) but only sells it to the manufacturer and available at dealers. So that may be why you pay less at Audi dealers for it than imported pentosin, but more than for Zerex G-05 at aftermarket retailers. I can see maybe paying more for G12++ (G40) to get a silicated HOAT but can't see the point in paying more for G12, an OAT not much different than Dexcool.
Originally Posted By: PeteTheFarmer
Originally Posted By: dparm
What is the difference between G12 and G12+?
I'd like to know also. I would also like to know why BASF G30 seems to correspond to both G12 and G12+
Hi Pete,
I have already answered this question, as it relates to the application of the product, in this thread. I reiterate: G12 Plus and G12 Plus Plus are miscible with G11, while G12 and G11 are not miscible. Mixing incompatible coolant is a common mistake made not only by laymen but also by professional mechanics. You can find plenty sob stories on VW and Audi forums.
The information that states that G30 can be used in lieu of G12 and G12 Plus may well be correct. As far as miscibility of G30 with G11 is concerned, you may want to call and ask BASF technical support for clarification.
I hope this helps.
Cheers,
-J
Originally Posted By: dparm
What is the difference between G12 and G12+?
I'd like to know also. I would also like to know why BASF G30 seems to correspond to both G12 and G12+
Hi Pete,
I have already answered this question, as it relates to the application of the product, in this thread. I reiterate: G12 Plus and G12 Plus Plus are miscible with G11, while G12 and G11 are not miscible. Mixing incompatible coolant is a common mistake made not only by laymen but also by professional mechanics. You can find plenty sob stories on VW and Audi forums.
The information that states that G30 can be used in lieu of G12 and G12 Plus may well be correct. As far as miscibility of G30 with G11 is concerned, you may want to call and ask BASF technical support for clarification.
I hope this helps.
Cheers,
-J
Hi mechanix,
G12 Plus and G12 Plus Plus are available online and at retail auto supplies shops. For example, ecstuning.com, exaltmotorsports.com, and germanautoparts.com, always have these coolants in stock. Like G12, G12 Plus has been discontinued, but will be sold until supplies run out.
Here is a link to a PDF from BASF from 2008, which talks about the then newly released G12 Plus Plus (G40).
Cheers,
-J
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Zerex also produces G12+ and G12++ (or at least they did) but only sells it to the manufacturer and available at dealers. So that may be why you pay less at Audi dealers for it than imported pentosin, but more than for Zerex G-05 at aftermarket retailers. I can see maybe paying more for G12++ (G40) to get a silicated HOAT but can't see the point in paying more for G12, an OAT not much different than Dexcool.
G12 Plus and G12 Plus Plus are available online and at retail auto supplies shops. For example, ecstuning.com, exaltmotorsports.com, and germanautoparts.com, always have these coolants in stock. Like G12, G12 Plus has been discontinued, but will be sold until supplies run out.
Here is a link to a PDF from BASF from 2008, which talks about the then newly released G12 Plus Plus (G40).
Cheers,
-J
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Zerex also produces G12+ and G12++ (or at least they did) but only sells it to the manufacturer and available at dealers. So that may be why you pay less at Audi dealers for it than imported pentosin, but more than for Zerex G-05 at aftermarket retailers. I can see maybe paying more for G12++ (G40) to get a silicated HOAT but can't see the point in paying more for G12, an OAT not much different than Dexcool.
Hi John, the information I've seen and what I believe is that the miscibility issue was a dye color issue. G11 (G48) blue couldn't be mixed with G12 (G30) pink because of a dye clash making it brown. This is similar to what happens when you mix orange Dexcool with green coolant. G12+ (G30) along with G12++ (G40) is purple and a different dye and both can be mixed with G11, and also G12, G12+, G12++ are compatible with each other.
I think you are right that G12 and G12+ have been discontinued and replaced with G12++.
I think you are right that G12 and G12+ have been discontinued and replaced with G12++.
Hi mechanix,
As I understand it, when G11 and G12 are mixed, the silicates drop out of suspension due to a saturation issue. After some foaming, gelling and clogging may occur. The dyes are specifically added to give a visual alert when incompatible OEM coolants are mixed.
VW are extremely careful in regard to switching cars from G11 to G12. A service bulletin prescribes not only thorough flushing, but also advises evacuating the cooling system with compressed air to make sure that all remaining traces of G11 coolant are removed from the system, especially from the difficult to flush heater core.
Obviously VW is aware of the incompatibility of G11 and G12. Therefore I find the discussion regarding compatibility somewhat superfluous. If in doubt, using the latest back-specified OEM coolant is a safe choice.
Cheers,
-J
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Hi John, the information I've seen and what I believe is that the miscibility issue was a dye color issue. G11 (G48) blue couldn't be mixed with G12 (G30) pink because of a dye clash making it brown. This is similar to what happens when you mix orange Dexcool with green coolant. G12+ (G30) along with G12++ (G40) is purple and a different dye and both can be mixed with G11, and also G12, G12+, G12++ are compatible with each other.
I think you are right that G12 and G12+ have been discontinued and replaced with G12++.
As I understand it, when G11 and G12 are mixed, the silicates drop out of suspension due to a saturation issue. After some foaming, gelling and clogging may occur. The dyes are specifically added to give a visual alert when incompatible OEM coolants are mixed.
VW are extremely careful in regard to switching cars from G11 to G12. A service bulletin prescribes not only thorough flushing, but also advises evacuating the cooling system with compressed air to make sure that all remaining traces of G11 coolant are removed from the system, especially from the difficult to flush heater core.
Obviously VW is aware of the incompatibility of G11 and G12. Therefore I find the discussion regarding compatibility somewhat superfluous. If in doubt, using the latest back-specified OEM coolant is a safe choice.
Cheers,
-J
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Hi John, the information I've seen and what I believe is that the miscibility issue was a dye color issue. G11 (G48) blue couldn't be mixed with G12 (G30) pink because of a dye clash making it brown. This is similar to what happens when you mix orange Dexcool with green coolant. G12+ (G30) along with G12++ (G40) is purple and a different dye and both can be mixed with G11, and also G12, G12+, G12++ are compatible with each other.
I think you are right that G12 and G12+ have been discontinued and replaced with G12++.
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
Obviously VW is aware of the incompatibility of G11 and G12. Therefore I find the discussion regarding compatibility somewhat superfluous. If in doubt, using the latest back-specified OEM coolant is a safe choice.
Personally, I'd never mix coolants unless I was sure they were the same (or close enough) i.e. GM Dex-Cool, Halvoline Dex-Cool, Zerex Dex-Cool. For mine, which now has a dexclone, the VW/Audi procedure for proper flushing was followed. I don't like mixing potentially incompatible coolants, but I can't see there being any problem with having a Dex-Cool in the Audi.
When coolant manufacturers cannot agree between their bottles and their website, and others specify more than one meeting G30, I don't have a lot of confidence in what they're telling me. That may make some people more likely to spring extra dough for the OEM coolant. Not me; I'll do the opposite and find what works.
GM, for all its faults, has made the Dex-Cool spec fairly universal through its licensing process. Plenty of manufacturers make dexclones and licenced Dex-Cool. Ford is now going the Dex-Cool route, too.
I have a healthy, sealed cooling system, and am using a dexclone with confidence.
Obviously VW is aware of the incompatibility of G11 and G12. Therefore I find the discussion regarding compatibility somewhat superfluous. If in doubt, using the latest back-specified OEM coolant is a safe choice.
Personally, I'd never mix coolants unless I was sure they were the same (or close enough) i.e. GM Dex-Cool, Halvoline Dex-Cool, Zerex Dex-Cool. For mine, which now has a dexclone, the VW/Audi procedure for proper flushing was followed. I don't like mixing potentially incompatible coolants, but I can't see there being any problem with having a Dex-Cool in the Audi.
When coolant manufacturers cannot agree between their bottles and their website, and others specify more than one meeting G30, I don't have a lot of confidence in what they're telling me. That may make some people more likely to spring extra dough for the OEM coolant. Not me; I'll do the opposite and find what works.
GM, for all its faults, has made the Dex-Cool spec fairly universal through its licensing process. Plenty of manufacturers make dexclones and licenced Dex-Cool. Ford is now going the Dex-Cool route, too.
I have a healthy, sealed cooling system, and am using a dexclone with confidence.
Yeah it is superflous especially if you aree just going to use the OE coolant recommendation. But what I seen was that G12 and G12+ and G12++ could not be mixed with the coolant previous to G11 (a silicated OAT). Additionaly, BASF classifies both G12 and G12+ as G30 OAT and not two separate ones, along with G34 Dexcool. Dexcool can be mixed with silicate containing coolants like american green, which is even a completely different formula, only the dyes clash.
Anyway, if I were going to go with the OE coolant or any other coolant to replace G11, G12 or G12+ I would not get the G12, but the G12++ and do a complete flush.
Anyway, if I were going to go with the OE coolant or any other coolant to replace G11, G12 or G12+ I would not get the G12, but the G12++ and do a complete flush.
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