Can bypass system filter out oil additives?

[doitmyself]

I vaguely remember a blurb from the NORIA website that stated that bypass sytems can sometimes filter out some of the good oil additives????

Anyone know if there is any truth to this??

Thank you.

 

[rugerman1]

Filters remove solids.Oil additives are soluable.Bypass filters have no affect on these additives.

Mark

 

[olympic]

If your talking about additives like Slick 50 that have solid particles in them then yes, a by-pass filter would remove those particles. But as far as additives in regular motor oil like calcium, moly, etc, no they won't be removed.

 

[doitmyself]

Here's the note I found on Noria:

"Is there a risk of altering a lubricating or hydraulic oil with 1-micron or submicron filter? For instance, reducing the EP additives?"

There are several ways to strip additives from lubricants. Polar aggregate separators (for example, activated alumina), vacuum or thermal dehydration, centrifugation and absorbent depth filtration all present some risk. However, with careful planning, risk can be minimized and the benefit of contamination control maximized.

There are some classes of additives that can certainly be removed with fine depth media filtration. Many types of lubricants have defoamant additives. These are suspended semisolid suspensions in the 5-10 micron range and are filterable. More discussion on this.

Efficient 1-micron filters can potentially remove EP (sulfur and phosphorus) additives that are not dissolved as well as suspended solid antiscuff additives.

Mike Johnson, Noria Corporation

 

[Bio-T]

If you search the UOA's on both diesel and gas engines using a bypass filter, you will find that the additive levels remain consistent with vehicles not using a bypass filter.

If you read between the lines of the quote from Noria, you will realize that bypass filters must be real efficient and really do the job that they advertise. A very subliminal way of telling those that don't like bypass filters that they really have merit.

 

[RalphPWood]

The Motor Guard was designed to compress the element and seal it at both ends. As the element is compressed it eliminates any chance of channeling. It can filter as small as 100th of 1 micron and is very effective to 1/10th of 1 micron. There have been additives that could be removed from the oil that the refineries added such as Arco graphite. I am not aware of any these days that can be removed. Some of the after market additives can be removed such as Slick 50. STP or Duralube can't be filtered out. Sometimes the additives will increase because yoou keep adding additives with new oil. Also clean oil doesn't use up additives like dirty oil. All of the cellulose filters are very effective at cleaning oil. The design of the Motor Guard makes it about 3 times as easy to service without spilling oil on the fender panel. The Motor Guard has the advantage for fuel where you have to get it out on the first pass. Some TP filters depend on oil pressure to seal the element. Motor Guard depends on the "T" handle. Many applications are low pressure such as the ATF and fuel. I work for a company that has a filter that can remove some of the additives but they are not used for lube oil.

Ralph

 

[Dropout]

Newbie here.

I'm researching extended oil drains and the Powerstroke injectors. From what I've read, the Powerstrokes need an antifoam additive for the injectors to function well.

Will a bypass filter or centrifuge remove that additive?

Does a UOA check for that additive?

 

[Bio-T]

The anti-foam additive is not affected at all by a bypass filter. Check the UOA's in the diesel section and you will see that it is no problem. I am running an 01 and a 95 PSD with bypass filters and no problems.

The anti-foam additive usually shows up in a VOA as Silicon, and most CI rated oils start with 4-7 PPM Silicon.

[ May 26, 2004, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

 

[Dropout]

Sorry for a silly question, but is the symbol for silicon SI?

Some of the tests you indicated show thsi to be closer to 20 ppm.

 

[Bio-T]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dropout:
Sorry for a silly question, but is the symbol for silicon SI?

Some of the tests you indicated show thsi to be closer to 20 ppm.

---

The symbol for silicon is SI and sorry I was not clear. When we test the Diesel Rated oil right out of the can, normally CI/SL, then the silicon shows to be 4-6 PPM and this is normally the anti-foam additive. When we test that same oil used in a UOA (used oil analysis) we get the 20 ppm Silicon. So I subtract what the reading was in the VOA (virgin oil analysis) and the remainder is the amount of dirt and other things ingested in the engine that show up as silicon. Also on a PSD the gaskets are made of RTV which will leach and read as silicon. This decreases with time and a reading under 10ppm SI in a PSD UOA is very good.

 

[Schultz]

quote:

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. It can filter as small as 100th of 1 micron and is very effective to 1/10th of 1 micron.

---

This should really be qualified with some actual muti-pass testing with Beta ratios. As an engineer of filtration devices, I find this claim hard to swallow. Yes it will likely filter those sizes but it's not likely to filter .01µm with any efficiency. I even challenge the .1µm claim. Keep in mind .2µm is considered a sterilizing filter, and I bet you can't sterilize fluids through a TP filter, even in a multi-pass test at a slow rate.
At .01µm, your talking ultra filtration and that's a hole other game that can't be accomplished with TP or any microporous membrane. The very smallest microporous membrane available is track-etched membrane at .05µm. Track etched is where an electron source is used to blow tiny holes in a solid plastic sheet. The sheet is then etched with acids/bases to enlarge the hole to a specific pore size.

An example
Track etched membrane

 

[Schultz]

The link didn't turn out, if interested try this one

Track etched

 

[Dropout]

Thanks 59 Vetteman.

Is something like Racor fuel filter a good idea then? At $500.00 (CDN) per injector, I'd like to have them last forever.

Dropout

 

[Bio-T]

The Racor is an excellent filter. I have had one on my 95 for 5 years.
The best on the market to me is the DAHL. You can buy them from Amsoil Dealers. The reason I don't have a Dahl, is I did not know about them when I bought mine.
Also I recommend an oil analysis perodically to ensure that you do not have fuel in the oil. Normally this would indicate injector O rings. These you can change yourself if needed.

 

[Dropout]

Ok, but if the silicon level increases over time, how does one tell if the proper silicon in in the oil? Or is it the same stuff?

If they're not the same, could "good" silicon be used up and "bad" silicon show an acceptable reading?

What readings should I be looking for to make sure the antifoam agent is working?

I'm worried about ruining the HEUI injectors.

Dropout


[/qb][/QUOTE]The symbol for silicon is SI and sorry I was not clear. When we test the Diesel Rated oil right out of the can, normally CI/SL, then the silicon shows to be 4-6 PPM and this is normally the anti-foam additive. When we test that same oil used in a UOA (used oil analysis) we get the 20 ppm Silicon. So I subtract what the reading was in the VOA (virgin oil analysis) and the remainder is the amount of dirt and other things ingested in the engine that show up as silicon. Also on a PSD the gaskets are made of RTV which will leach and read as silicon. This decreases with time and a reading under 10ppm SI in a PSD UOA is very good.

[/QB][/QUOTE]

 

[Bio-T]

Not a worry, on your PSD if the good silicon is used up it will buck and run rough. It will act like a gas engine with a sticking valve.

I have been running a bypass on my 95 PSD since then and no problems. Modern oils have sufficient anti-foam additive. Plus with a bypass you change filter and full flow and add apprx. 3 more quarts of oil, thus replenishing the additives and anti-foam. The CAT HEUI injectors on your PSD are activated using a HPOP, (high pressure oil pump). The oil does not cause the wear, things such as dirty fuel, excess air in the fuel, water in the fuel etc. are the culprits.

[ May 27, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

 

[Ken2]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dropout:
Ok, but if the silicon level increases over time, how does one tell if the proper silicon in in the oil? Or is it the same stuff?

If they're not the same, could "good" silicon be used up and "bad" silicon show an acceptable reading?

What readings should I be looking for to make sure the antifoam agent is working?

I'm worried about ruining the HEUI injectors.

Dropout

---

The usual oil analysis we get can't tell the difference between silica (dirt), silicone (gaskets & sealants), and silane (antifoam). They all read as the element silicon. If the Si reading is high on a new engine, it's probably silicone from gaskets. If it high on an engine that isn't new, it is likely silica from dirt that got past the air filter.

SI is the magazine with the great swimsuit models.


Ken