But Coal Power can't be flexible

[Shannow]

I keep hearing that (including various ministers that I've spoken to).

But it is, and it can, and here's how one power station in Oz is doing it.

https://wattclarity.com.au/articles/2025/01/casestudy-2024-10-12-mp2-twoshift/

 

[CKN]

I keep hearing that (including various ministers that I've spoken to).

But it is, and it can, and here's how one power station in Oz is doing it.

https://wattclarity.com.au/articles/2025/01/casestudy-2024-10-12-mp2-twoshift/

Coal in the U.S. is history. It's just a matter of time.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Coal in the U.S. is history. It's just a matter of time.

That is what Germany said prior to Ukraine war.

They don't even have coal. They have lignite - a really wet, less energy dense version of coal.

 

[OVERKILL]

That is what Germany said prior to Ukraine war.

They don't even have coal. They have lignite - a really wet, less energy dense version of coal.

Yep, and look at them now:

 

[OVERKILL]

I keep hearing that (including various ministers that I've spoken to).

But it is, and it can, and here's how one power station in Oz is doing it.

https://wattclarity.com.au/articles/2025/01/casestudy-2024-10-12-mp2-twoshift/

Nanticoke, the largest coal plant in North America, used to be our peaking capacity in Ontario. 8 units, 4,200MW, and it would ramp and load follow.

 

[Shannow]

Coal in the U.S. is history. It's just a matter of time.

Of course it's going out...

Question is do you want to live like cave people in the transition, only doing stuff in daylight hours, or do you want some "order" to the transition....

And 100% renewables needs (nealy) 100% of something else to do it some percentage of the time...do you want new gas fleet for back-up, or is utilising older infrastructure that is already paid for more efficient ?

 

[fdcg27]

Nuclear is the answer in the longer term, if we can ever get past the opposition to it, but coal works for now and takes advantage of existing generating capacity.

 

[mk378]

BTU for BTU, in the US gas costs less than coal. This is the fuel cost before you even consider that even with no pollution controls, a coal plant will be more expensive to operate than gas. Coal is dead purely on economics.

 

[brandon9715]

Like @mk378 said, coal is dead purely on economics, let alone the “green” aspect. We also have the largest supply of natural gas in the world here in the US. Long-term, my opinion is nuclear is the only real option. Until then, natural gas is the most logical way that is more cost effective and less polluting than coal.

 

[SC Maintenance]

BTU for BTU, in the US gas costs less than coal. This is the fuel cost before you even consider that even with no pollution controls, a coal plant will be more expensive to operate than gas. Coal is dead purely on economics.

As soon as you stop drilling for shale for maybe a year or two, Gas goes from $4 spot to $10 and then its much more than coal. Cheap gas is predicated on needing oil. We stop burning gasoline, cheap nat gas goes away - and pretty quickly. Remember its a waste product currently.

Europe is paying $13 - $14 MMBTU for gas currently.

Then there is the small fact that the coal fired plants exist already, which is why we still get 19% of our electricity from coal.

Renewables with some breakthrough in grid level storage, or nuclear is the only thing that gets you off coal, especially with exponential increase needs from AI, EV's and reshored manufacturing.

 

[CKN]

Of course it's going out...

Question is do you want to live like cave people in the transition, only doing stuff in daylight hours, or do you want some "order" to the transition....

And 100% renewables needs (nealy) 100% of something else to do it some percentage of the time...do you want new gas fleet for back-up, or is utilising older infrastructure that is already paid for more efficient ?

No...we are not going back to cavemen days. So melodramatic like so many other threads on this forum.
Coal is going away. What is barbaric is sending guys in to a hole in the ground-only to have them die or be very sick in retirement because of spending time like a rat in a hole.

 

[Shannow]

No...we are not going back to cavemen days. So melodramatic like so many other threads on this forum.
Coal is going away. What is barbaric is sending guys in to a hole in the ground-only to have them die or be very sick in retirement because of spending time like a rat in a hole.

That's not how coal is mined...maybe 100 years ago with pit ponies etc. it's way safer than what we are asking third world kids to do...

As to my point, here's Oz a few years ago...the area under the dotted line to the solid red line is the renewables that had to be curtailed so that the other sources would be there when they were needed, overnight and morning/evening peaks. Note the slivers of storage, morning and evening...certianly looks like we either need to live during daylight hours, or accept the pace of the transition that manages your desire to keep using your lightswitch.

And no, storage is NOT the answer, for a 24 hour period, let alone a two week renewables drought (which we had three of in 2024.

 

[OVERKILL]

No...we are not going back to cavemen days. So melodramatic like so many other threads on this forum.
Coal is going away. What is barbaric is sending guys in to a hole in the ground-only to have them die or be very sick in retirement because of spending time like a rat in a hole.

This is how Germany mines coal:

There's a truck in the picture for scale.

 

[edyvw]

Of course it's going out...

Question is do you want to live like cave people in the transition, only doing stuff in daylight hours, or do you want some "order" to the transition....

And 100% renewables needs (nealy) 100% of something else to do it some percentage of the time...do you want new gas fleet for back-up, or is utilising older infrastructure that is already paid for more efficient ?

Why do you assume anyone has to live like that?
We have 5 gas-powered units for an emergency that replaced the coal plant. The coal is still dominant in the state, but it is declining, not being shut down "just because."
70% of renewable is wind, bcs, there is plenty of that here.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Of course it's going out...

Question is do you want to live like cave people in the transition, only doing stuff in daylight hours, or do you want some "order" to the transition....

And 100% renewables needs (nealy) 100% of something else to do it some percentage of the time...do you want new gas fleet for back-up, or is utilising older infrastructure that is already paid for more efficient ?

I'm still trying to understand how anyone could possibly claim that a power source that needs 100% standby backup is in any way "efficient". So not only are you paying to construct 200% nameplate capacity for, at best, about 94-95% uptime, you're also leaving half of the total system completely at the mercy of ALL the elements. Now toss in the loss of prime farmland in many cases, along with killed birds and a brand new desertification source, the solar heat island effect, of large arrays... it's pretty obvious that those pushing these technologies as the "only" solution AND at taxpayer expense, are actually environmental terrorists.

There's a happy, achievable medium to get decarbonization going without setting society back 100 years and causing mass starvation & deaths from exposure. And it can't rely on mandates or subsidies to make it happen if it's going to be socially acceptable.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Why do you assume anyone has to live like that?
We have 5 gas-powered units for an emergency that replaced the coal plant. The coal is still dominant in the state, but it is declining, not being shut down "just because."
70% of renewable is wind, bcs, there is plenty of that here.

One thing to remember is that since wind & solar essentially require 100% excess generation to allow for the times there is no wind at night; any system that claims to be more than 50% renewable will be immediately identifiable as prime suspects for frequent power outages and poor overall service (rolling black/brownouts).

Anyone who pushes a system that exceeds 50% of total capacity based on wind & solar should be run out of town and never allowed to return.

 

[edyvw]

One thing to remember is that since wind & solar essentially require 100% excess generation to allow for the times there is no wind at night; any system that claims to be more than 50% renewable will be immediately identifiable as prime suspects for frequent power outages and poor overall service (rolling black/brownouts).

Anyone who pushes a system that exceeds 50% of total capacity based on wind & solar should be run out of town and never allowed to return.

OK, and? This is not zero sum game.

 

[oldcodger]

We have the uranium and we have the technology to build safer nuclear plants. Nuclear can be ramped up and down as required.

 

[Sumboodie]

Coal in the U.S. is history. It's just a matter of time.

Maybe, but not in my lifetime

 

[TooMuch]

$ per million BTU at Retail/Consumer level NC/USA