Buell goes liquid for 08

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G-MAN

G-MAN

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Liquid Cooled 1125cc 72º V-Twin
146 HP, 84 lb-ft torque, 10,500 RPM redline
6 Speed Transmission
Hydraulic Vacuum-Assist Slipper Clutch
ZTL2 Brake System (the "2" may mean dual disc?)
47mm Inverted Fork
54.5″ Wheel Base
5.6 Gallons Fuel-in-Frame

Look out Ducati.
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They actually had to go get a Rotax to make this happen. Why can't they develop their own engines with high HP?
 
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They actually had to go get a Rotax to make this happen. Why can't they develop their own engines with high HP?

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That is totally inaccurate. They didn't just go buy an "off the shelf" Rotax engine and stuff it in a Buell frame. This engine was designed from the ground up for Buell by BRP-Rotax based on design and performance specifications set by Buell engineers. Buell engineers worked closely with BRP-Rotax during the design and development.
 
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Quote:

They actually had to go get a Rotax to make this happen. Why can't they develop their own engines with high HP?

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That is totally inaccurate. They didn't just go buy an "off the shelf" Rotax engine and stuff it in a Buell frame. This engine was designed from the ground up for Buell by BRP-Rotax based on design and performance specifications set by Buell engineers. Buell engineers worked closely with BRP-Rotax during the design and development.

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Sort of like the Evolution and TC88 engines were co-developed with Porsche. Why re-invent the wheel when others have had more practice at it? I'd rather have a well running machine built on superior engineering over one built on "pride". I believe it is this new thinking that turned HD around.
 
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Sort of like the Evolution and TC88 engines were co-developed with Porsche.

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That's not accurate, either. The Evolution and Twin Cam engines were totally developed in-house by Harley. The V2, V4, and V6 Nova prototype engines were developed with Porsche. The VR1000 racing engine was developed with Porsche. The Revolution engine for the V-Rod (which is loosely based on the VR1000) was developed with Porsche.
 
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Sort of like the Evolution and TC88 engines were co-developed with Porsche.

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That's not accurate, either. The Evolution and Twin Cam engines were totally developed in-house by Harley. The V2, V4, and V6 Nova prototype engines were developed with Porsche. The VR1000 racing engine was developed with Porsche. The Revolution engine for the V-Rod (which is loosely based on the VR1000) was developed with Porsche.

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Interesting. I did a short look on the Internet and I can't find anything to support that Porsche helped in the build of these motors either. Goes to show you that you can't believe everything a Harley Dealer will tell you.
 
This may be a good thing for Buell because now it will have the one missing ingredient that has caused a lot of lost sales: power. Many friends of mine have mentioned getting a Buell but none have pulled the trigger, probably because of the lack of bragging rights, or some other testosterone-induced reason. I like the power specs but I wonder how much weight that will add. Will the Buell turn into every other crotch-rocket? Maybe that's a good thing, an American crotch rocket...hmmm....

Anyway, I hope I have a chance to buy an Ultra before they start putting radiators on them. I know why they went this direction for the Buells, and I know they are going this direction for the whole line soon but it just won't be the same, and I don't mean in a good way. I guess that just means cheaper used Harleys down the road.

I went to a product evaluation meeting (paid for by Harley) with several riders, most, but not all, were Harley riders. Pretty much everyone in the room wanted to see water-cooling on more of Harley's bikes. I said I'd like to see an oil-cooler, nothing else. Some said for more HP, some said for more reliability. Harley's can make plenty of power and be reliable without water-cooling, but I see where the wind is blowing with emissions laws, including noise emissions. Its a win-win for the factory because the bike will be quieter, have more HP, and have lower emissions. But don't think that it will be free, they asked us how much we were willing to pay for water-cooling, $3000, $2000, $1500?

Sorry to rant on your thread G-man. I think Buell needed to do something to give CPR to their sales and this may be just what the doctor ordered, as long as they don't go crazy with the price. I'm just not keen on the rest of the HD line-up moving "forward".
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cfromc, I agree. It will be a shame of sorts to see the air-cooled Harley move toward the dustbin. But, that's "progress", just like when Harley began to outsource to foreign-made parts to get quality up and production prices down. The modern Harley is much improved in reliablitiy over the old ones (especially the AMC-derived ones). In some ways, that was a shame too, but, most of us want better reliability, and more efficiency, which, I guess eventually dictates water-cooling. Even Porsche evolved in this direction. I don't see why they couldn't keep the sound, though, and that is enough for many people.
 
I'm sure the sound will be similar and they may even hang some semi or non-functional cooling fins on the motor so it looks similar. At the focus group I attended there was a touring model with the V-Rod engine in it. It looked like half Japanese bike and half Harley. They asked us which of four choices we'd like to see in the future: Same, oil cooler, comprehensive oil cooling with modified heads+passages+large cooler, or water-cooling. No one said "same", I said oil cooler, a couple said comprehensive oil cooling, and the rest (6-8) said water-cooling. I thought for the couple % of riders that actually ride their bikes and might see 100K or more, the bikes MAY prove to be more reliable, but for everyone else, I just don't see it. The fewer things to go wrong the better. I used to ride with a friend that had a UJCR (Universal Japanese Crotch-Rocket) and his bike constantly overheated. He ended up replacing everything in the cooling system, rejetting the carbs, and doing tune-ups, etc. to no avail. Then he rebuild the engine and it still overheated. Extreme maybe, but I used to always give him ____ saying my bike was leaking coolant...oh just kidding.
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From my POV, I don't need another thing to maintain and worry about. My Sporty is 11 years old and I've never had to change coolant, or a water pump, or had a t-stat stick closed and blow my head gasket or worse. For a high output motor, like the new Buell, or the Ducati 1098, I would sacrifice some additional wrench time and $$ to get 150HP or so. But if I just want to lay-back, ride, and cruise with maybe a couple long trips every year and not put 20K every year, I don't want the hassle. If something works fine, don't muck it up with complexity.

Keep It Sweet and Simple. That's why I want a nice Screamin' Eagle Ultra before the change over...and maybe a 146hp Buell....
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On EVERY watercooled motorcycle I've had, with the exception of a BMW, I've had a coolant leak at one time or another. All it takes is a tightening of a hose clamp, but, sometimes that hose clamp is under the tank, behind the fuel injectors, around some wiring harness, etc. So, I know what you are saying...give me a little less HP and more simplicity. The problem with the Harley in that regard is you gain at least one more lubricant other than engine oil. I've seen those primary/transmission gaskets leak WAY too much. The V-rod I rode the other day was spitting coolant out of the water pump housing. Dang...that's just not HARLEY, ya know? Anyway, I know what you're saying. Water cooled is coming despite what we may prefer.
 
BMW and Aprilia have both outsourced their engine development to Rotax on several models. The F650 and RSV Mille are both fantastic bikes.

I'm glad they went this route. People have been calling for Buell to use the The V-Rod engine but I think that would have been a mistake. It's a great cruiser engine but not appropriate for a competitive sportbike.

With Buell's chassis innovations and some years of development I hope we see something that can compete in World Superbike. If I'm not mistaken, WSBK will soon allow 1200cc displacement for v-twins.
 
a couple of years ago, I spoke with Erik Buell after a test ride. He asked a few generic questions, then the discussion turned to my desire to have more HP. While I claimed to be a HP junkie, the fact remains that the Harley engine is not really powerful. Buell has done a great job making that air cooled engine work as well as it does.

I look forward to the new Buell's. If only for the additional RPM and HP.

Still, the Ulysses, my favorite bike of all time is perfectly matched to the Harley engine IMHO.

Chris
 
As long as you think of this bike in terms of liquid vs. air, you don't get it. They want to go racin and it ain't happenin with a tractor motor. Wonder how they got it past willie G's desk? he's an idiot when it comes to forward thinking (ask the shareholders, I'm one) Hopefully the engine will trickle down into the rest of the buell line.
 
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Now if Harley would finally do the same thing in their touring bikes.

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I agree. I spent a day on a ElectraGlide in Big Sur. I really missed the flexible power of a powerful, high revving engine. Soured me on Harleys in General.
 
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