He was as angry as I've ever seen a military man on TV. 6 US soldiers will be court martialed for prisoner abuse, and 11 others sttod down and face disciplinary action. One is a female Brig General Janice Karpinski who was in charge of Abu Ghraib prison. Kimmett told Dan Rather "if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat prisoners with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers". Wires attached to genitals, dog attacks? Ex Marine Lt. Col bill Cowan "We went into Iraq to stop things like this from happening, and indeed, here they are happening under our tutelage". He has a son soldiering in Iraq so tough to speak out. A male juvenile prisoner was raped and a female soldier took photo's. Appears one soldier couldn't stand it any longer and handed over the photo's in January leading to a large investigation. At least 60 Mins honoured Gen Myers request to delay broadcast for two weeks given the danger and attention on the ground. Whoever tok the photo's must feel really dumb!
Brigadier General Kimmett on TV last night
- Thread starter sprintman
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It's what I have been saying all along. the way the Us troops conduct themselves in Iraq earns them the attacks they deserve. The Fallujah people started killing US troops after 17 civilians were shot by our glorious army. Natirally there was no investigation, Iraqi lives are cheap. Sadly that's what saddam thought too.
The war is lost..
The war is lost..
Last_Z,
I agree that militarily they are fortresses.
But THIS part of the war in Iraq, that started after "mission accomplished" a year ago is to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis, and showing them that their world IS going to be different.
Moving into the very same palaces that were the very representation of Maddas' evil isn't a good move in that respect (IMHO)
I agree that militarily they are fortresses.
But THIS part of the war in Iraq, that started after "mission accomplished" a year ago is to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis, and showing them that their world IS going to be different.
Moving into the very same palaces that were the very representation of Maddas' evil isn't a good move in that respect (IMHO)
Shannow,
Sorry, but our friend is now choosing to post on another board instead of here. His comments are hard to digest at times.
You know, it really hurts to read crap like that! I never imagined that there were people in this country that would wish our troops harm.
Shannow,
We have made mistakes, but we aren't perfect. Perhaps some of our critics could send some troops and help us out??
Shannow,
We have made mistakes, but we aren't perfect. Perhaps some of our critics could send some troops and help us out??
I think the biggest mistake people make is not understanding the magnitude of this war. Iraq is just a piece of a very big puzzle. Bush didn't start this war.....neither did Clinton or Bush Sr. Terrorists have been attacking western style democracies for decades. Examples are, the masacre of the Israli athletes in Munich, Pan Am 109, WTC 93, WTC 01....their ultimate goal is to eliminate such democracies, begining with the total annihilation of Israel, followed by the US. They are literally trying to turn back time!
This war is going to be long and very costly....not only in money and resources; but also in blood. They will not stop attacking us, and neither should we stop killing them. Our future depends on how well we work together now!
These people need to be dealt with for the good of humanity.
This war is going to be long and very costly....not only in money and resources; but also in blood. They will not stop attacking us, and neither should we stop killing them. Our future depends on how well we work together now!
These people need to be dealt with for the good of humanity.
Sir, don't open your mouth if you don't know what you are talking about. Military personnel receive MANDATORY training on Geneva Convention rules every year. Accidents have happened many times, especially since the enemy does not differentiate itself from civilians. There really isn't much to investigate....these are casualties of war and the explanation is most times very simple....they are caught in the crossfire which most likely is a result of their own Muslim brothers fault. If the military wanted to kill Iraqis, they would have leveled Fallujah and be done with it. Instead, the Marines have taken numerous casualties trying to avoid killing innocent civilians.
Your comparison of the US Military to Saddam Hussein speaks volumes of the kind of people you are. It's a shame so many brave men and women have lost their lives protecting people like you. You couldn't possibly repay them by kissing their arse for a million years!
As for those few who violated the rules....they will be dealt with and most likely very harshly. Their act will have repercussions all over the world and their stupidity may be rewarded with a trip to Hotel Ft. Leavenworth.
I wonder if you guys give any thought to your comments. The reason they are using Saddam's palaces is that they are esentially fortresses and thus give the troops substantial protection from insurgents. Maybe they should set up a tent city in the middle of Baghdad
Sodomisation with a chemical light and possibly a broomstick is mentioned in a report by U.S Major General Antonio Taguba. Beatings with a broom handle etc. "After what we saw, all Iraqi's will attack them now," Abdulilah Mohammed, 55, a Baghdad street vendor said, of the Americans. Also six British soldiers are to be arrested by MP's for torture and abuse. A rogue element of the Queens Lancashire regiment started the abuse/torture as misguided retribution after Captain Dai Jones, 29, was killed in an ambulance by a bomb. A few rotten apples ensuring more American and British troops die.
It sounds like this has been going on for months. That kind of crap doesn't exist in a vacuum with no one knowing about it. There had to be high level involment at at least the
General officer level or at least knowledge of it at the General officer level.
I predict a few sacrificial heads will roll over this and then there will be an effort to bury it.
They need a proper investigation. Command and control is broken in that part of the military, or if it isn't we have a more serious problem
To do the deed is bad enough but to take photo's that then get to the press! They should be jailed for stupidity if nothing else. I remember what I was told when I joined the RAAF at 17. Our DI who was an Air Defence Guard (ADG)and two tour vet of Vietnam and trying to get back for a third told us the three rules of service life. 1) Bullsh_t baffles brains
2) Never volunteer. 3) If you stuff up don't get caught. Good lesson indeed.
2) Never volunteer. 3) If you stuff up don't get caught. Good lesson indeed.
Although it is pointless to argue with folks like last_z, I'd just like to point out a few things:
a.)
TENS OF THOUSANDS of people have been severely injured or killed due to the US invasion and occupation. How would you like to have your neigborhood bombed and then have a leg or eye missing last_z?
b.)
UNEMPLOYMENT is soaring (post invasion) while the country is bombed out in shambles and littered with severely toxic depleted uranium dusts for the next few centuries. Iraqis of course get a pittance of any reconstruction $'s--mind you, from their own oil revenue-- while most or almost all of their oil revenues flow right into the coffers of US companies. You know the ones. And programs that existed under Hussein like free food, and extreemely subsidized gas (pennies/liter) have been cut or eliminated (we need their gas, so why give it away for free to those dang eye-rackies?).
This is rape and pilliage under the pretext of finding those--oh so threatening-- weapons of mass destruction that were going to blow the US of A to bits. Then that changed to some other pretexts like liberating the Iraqi people?
(The funny thing about this claim is that this is coming from the mouths of rabid intolerant Muslim-hating right wing "Christians". Yeah, they just want to give those Eye-rackies democracy out of the kindness of our hearts... it has nothing to do with their oil at all. really. Mmmm-huuh. Yeah, these are the same sort of Fox-news-watching people that try to make themselves believe that Arabs are the scum of the earth, and that those danged eye-rackies flew passenger planes into the WTC and are helping OBL. Yet despite all the hate they just want to help them out a bit; your know liberate them, give them democracy, etc.)
2. Regarding: "It's a shame so many brave men and women have lost their lives protecting people like you."
I (nor Scirocco, I am assuming) never asked these people to invade Iraq for me or protect me from "terrorists". The only "terrorists" that I'm worried about are the ones in the white house and pentagon; terrorism doesn't concern me, since there are far greater risks to worry about.
In fact, to the contrary; I was there protesting the war, because I think the invasion and continued occupation and looting of Iraq will only make this country less safe, and produce actually significant masses of people that really loathe the US and will take up arms one day.
How does invading Iraq, occupying it, and then pilliaging it make me safer from "terrorists"? I really fail to see this.
And do i really need to worry about these so called terrorists when there are liars criminals (convicted and unconvicted) and insane rabid "people" who generally don't give an f about human beings' lifes??? How many people have been killed by terrorists in this country? Now compare that with the number of people killed here by drunk drivers, negligent drivers, and reckless drivers.
If the issue is protecting lives, you can save more lives, with of magnitues less money (than cost of the war in Iraq, let alone the "war or terror") by simply pumping three hundred million USD/yr into ad campaigns to reduce drunken driving, non attentive driving, road rage, etc, and a few hunder million into increasing enforcement of reasonable driving.
1. The iraqi's loathe the US occupation more than life under Hussein. Consider this:
a.)
TENS OF THOUSANDS of people have been severely injured or killed due to the US invasion and occupation. How would you like to have your neigborhood bombed and then have a leg or eye missing last_z?
b.)
UNEMPLOYMENT is soaring (post invasion) while the country is bombed out in shambles and littered with severely toxic depleted uranium dusts for the next few centuries. Iraqis of course get a pittance of any reconstruction $'s--mind you, from their own oil revenue-- while most or almost all of their oil revenues flow right into the coffers of US companies. You know the ones. And programs that existed under Hussein like free food, and extreemely subsidized gas (pennies/liter) have been cut or eliminated (we need their gas, so why give it away for free to those dang eye-rackies?).
This is rape and pilliage under the pretext of finding those--oh so threatening-- weapons of mass destruction that were going to blow the US of A to bits. Then that changed to some other pretexts like liberating the Iraqi people?
(The funny thing about this claim is that this is coming from the mouths of rabid intolerant Muslim-hating right wing "Christians". Yeah, they just want to give those Eye-rackies democracy out of the kindness of our hearts... it has nothing to do with their oil at all. really. Mmmm-huuh. Yeah, these are the same sort of Fox-news-watching people that try to make themselves believe that Arabs are the scum of the earth, and that those danged eye-rackies flew passenger planes into the WTC and are helping OBL. Yet despite all the hate they just want to help them out a bit; your know liberate them, give them democracy, etc.)
2. Regarding: "It's a shame so many brave men and women have lost their lives protecting people like you."
I (nor Scirocco, I am assuming) never asked these people to invade Iraq for me or protect me from "terrorists". The only "terrorists" that I'm worried about are the ones in the white house and pentagon; terrorism doesn't concern me, since there are far greater risks to worry about.
In fact, to the contrary; I was there protesting the war, because I think the invasion and continued occupation and looting of Iraq will only make this country less safe, and produce actually significant masses of people that really loathe the US and will take up arms one day.
How does invading Iraq, occupying it, and then pilliaging it make me safer from "terrorists"? I really fail to see this.
And do i really need to worry about these so called terrorists when there are liars criminals (convicted and unconvicted) and insane rabid "people" who generally don't give an f about human beings' lifes??? How many people have been killed by terrorists in this country? Now compare that with the number of people killed here by drunk drivers, negligent drivers, and reckless drivers.
If the issue is protecting lives, you can save more lives, with of magnitues less money (than cost of the war in Iraq, let alone the "war or terror") by simply pumping three hundred million USD/yr into ad campaigns to reduce drunken driving, non attentive driving, road rage, etc, and a few hunder million into increasing enforcement of reasonable driving.
The photos disgust me as much or more than anyone. I was almost literally sick when I saw them. Some look like a woman GI...what's with that?
However - the "facts" are just beginning to ooze out. We need the real facts, not some twisted logic to serve ANYONE's purpose. Sure the prisoners were humiliated (if the picts are true), but were they really tortured?
I can say categorically that this is NOT the undertaking of the 150000 GI's nor were any at the top (I have some connections) aware of this before late winter. It appears this was an isolated building in a prison complex - a building physically and somehow cross functionally separate from the main prison. This should have thrown up some red flags.
As far as the Arabic population - it seems they hate us beyond hate already, but we didn't need this. The things we can do are, again get the facts, somehow find the POW's and criminals (yes) that we caused duress to, publicly apologize to them, then make sure it doesn't happen again via solid 3rd party oversight and penalize the guilty.
However, we need to stand on our aggressive war footing and continue to kill terrorists in Iraq and around the world. (sorry)
However - the "facts" are just beginning to ooze out. We need the real facts, not some twisted logic to serve ANYONE's purpose. Sure the prisoners were humiliated (if the picts are true), but were they really tortured?
I can say categorically that this is NOT the undertaking of the 150000 GI's nor were any at the top (I have some connections) aware of this before late winter. It appears this was an isolated building in a prison complex - a building physically and somehow cross functionally separate from the main prison. This should have thrown up some red flags.
As far as the Arabic population - it seems they hate us beyond hate already, but we didn't need this. The things we can do are, again get the facts, somehow find the POW's and criminals (yes) that we caused duress to, publicly apologize to them, then make sure it doesn't happen again via solid 3rd party oversight and penalize the guilty.
However, we need to stand on our aggressive war footing and continue to kill terrorists in Iraq and around the world. (sorry)
With regards to the Arabic population. They don't actually hate us as you say they dislike our government and its policies within the Middle East. I have traveled within the Arabic world and grew up there and your perceptions based on media are pretty tainted as there's are from their propoganda/media.
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