In high B oils like PU and M1 0W-40, why do some UOA's show significant depletion and minimal in others?
Boron depletion
- Thread starter vinu_neuro
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I think the best thing to do would be to compare a VOA to a UOA of the same batch of oil. Also, what was used before the PU that you are testing. Did it have boron or not? How much?
Boron compounds can combine with water and fall out of solution, in a gearbox that is contaminated with water it forms sludge, but it should get caught in the engine oil filter I presume.
The detergents and anti wear additives shown in a UOA are not necessarily still active, so the figure is not of great interest although it does give you an idea what was in the oil when new. The Calcium figure increases slightly due to evapouration of base stock components.
The detergents and anti wear additives shown in a UOA are not necessarily still active, so the figure is not of great interest although it does give you an idea what was in the oil when new. The Calcium figure increases slightly due to evapouration of base stock components.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Minute amounts of residual boric acid in the presence of moisture and oxygen cause any sheared platelets to be rapidly replaced in a self-renewing cycle of boric acid-metal-metallic boric oxide-crystalline boric acid platelet regeneration and bonding, thus a self-replenishing lubricant.
As INDYMAC indicated, one should test any new oil to see what the additive levels are and then compare to a UOA, otherwise, you are running on assumptions.
The variation in Boron levels in Used Oil Analysis may seem to indicate loss or gain but I suspect it is simply the inherent variation and or calibration of the instruments used.
FWIW, here is an older white paper on Boron additives:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729116#Post729116
Minute amounts of residual boric acid in the presence of moisture and oxygen cause any sheared platelets to be rapidly replaced in a self-renewing cycle of boric acid-metal-metallic boric oxide-crystalline boric acid platelet regeneration and bonding, thus a self-replenishing lubricant.
As INDYMAC indicated, one should test any new oil to see what the additive levels are and then compare to a UOA, otherwise, you are running on assumptions.
The variation in Boron levels in Used Oil Analysis may seem to indicate loss or gain but I suspect it is simply the inherent variation and or calibration of the instruments used.
FWIW, here is an older white paper on Boron additives:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729116#Post729116
Last edited:
Good read, my Boron dropped by roughly the same amount each OCI, about 15%. I like this part:
As you can see, additive chemistry is a meticulous balancing act, so as to preclude additive clash.
As you can see, additive chemistry is a meticulous balancing act, so as to preclude additive clash.
Originally Posted By: skyship
Good read, my Boron dropped by roughly the same amount each OCI, about 15%. I like this part:
As you can see, additive chemistry is a meticulous balancing act, so as to preclude additive clash.
Just looked up the exact figures for a 10K km run of LM Synthoil High Tech 5/40 in a Volvo 1.9TD subject to severe service stop starts and abuse.
VOA: 71 1st UOA: 62 2nd UOA: 63
Good read, my Boron dropped by roughly the same amount each OCI, about 15%. I like this part:
As you can see, additive chemistry is a meticulous balancing act, so as to preclude additive clash.
Just looked up the exact figures for a 10K km run of LM Synthoil High Tech 5/40 in a Volvo 1.9TD subject to severe service stop starts and abuse.
VOA: 71 1st UOA: 62 2nd UOA: 63
Originally Posted By: skyship
Boron compounds can combine with water and fall out of solution, in a gearbox that is contaminated with water it forms sludge, but it should get caught in the engine oil filter I presume.
The detergents and anti wear additives shown in a UOA are not necessarily still active, so the figure is not of great interest although it does give you an idea what was in the oil when new. The Calcium figure increases slightly due to evapouration of base stock components.
You're correct and I agree with you about the reaction with water regarding Boron compounds. In transmissions, where Boron based dispersants are used, the reaction with water creates 2 scenarios.
i) the drop out that you describe
ii) there is the reaction with water that creates boric acid, which I think someone else has also described.
The danger here that exists and is current in the market place is that the Boric Acid (under certain conditions) can crystalise and the crystals are able to get into valve bodies and cause them to jam, thus creating a transmission failure. You can find evidence of this if you take a look at warranty claims from a certain European OEM related to their activities particularly in China. There are both Television Reports and also Newspaper Articles pertaining to this failure mode.
Boron compounds can combine with water and fall out of solution, in a gearbox that is contaminated with water it forms sludge, but it should get caught in the engine oil filter I presume.
The detergents and anti wear additives shown in a UOA are not necessarily still active, so the figure is not of great interest although it does give you an idea what was in the oil when new. The Calcium figure increases slightly due to evapouration of base stock components.
You're correct and I agree with you about the reaction with water regarding Boron compounds. In transmissions, where Boron based dispersants are used, the reaction with water creates 2 scenarios.
i) the drop out that you describe
ii) there is the reaction with water that creates boric acid, which I think someone else has also described.
The danger here that exists and is current in the market place is that the Boric Acid (under certain conditions) can crystalise and the crystals are able to get into valve bodies and cause them to jam, thus creating a transmission failure. You can find evidence of this if you take a look at warranty claims from a certain European OEM related to their activities particularly in China. There are both Television Reports and also Newspaper Articles pertaining to this failure mode.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
The Calcium figure increases slightly due to evapouration of base stock components.
How did you arrive at this statement?
Quote:
in a gearbox that is contaminated with water it forms sludge, but it should get caught in the engine oil filter I presume.
The OP is discussing Boron levels at it relates to VOA's verses UOA's wrt engine oils, not transmission oils. Most engines and transmissions are isolated from one another and each have separate filtering systems.
The Calcium figure increases slightly due to evapouration of base stock components.
How did you arrive at this statement?
Quote:
in a gearbox that is contaminated with water it forms sludge, but it should get caught in the engine oil filter I presume.
The OP is discussing Boron levels at it relates to VOA's verses UOA's wrt engine oils, not transmission oils. Most engines and transmissions are isolated from one another and each have separate filtering systems.
Last edited:
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
there is the reaction with water that creates boric acid, which I think someone else has also described.
Most boron additives used in lubricants are aminic borates which prevent hydrolysis and acids from forming.
there is the reaction with water that creates boric acid, which I think someone else has also described.
Most boron additives used in lubricants are aminic borates which prevent hydrolysis and acids from forming.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
The Calcium figure increases slightly due to evapouration of base stock components.
How did you arrive at this statement?
Quote:
in a gearbox that is contaminated with water it forms sludge, but it should get caught in the engine oil filter I presume.
The OP is discussing Boron levels at it relates to VOA's verses UOA's wrt engine oils, not transmission oils. Most engines and transmissions are isolated from one another and each have separate filtering systems.
How did skunkship arrive at that statement? HA. Do you read his posts? I've got him on ignore because if he is spreading false info he is posting about something that has nothing to do with the thread.
As far as boron becoming boric acid I remember reading that the type of boron used in oil cannot become boric acid.
Quote:
The Calcium figure increases slightly due to evapouration of base stock components.
How did you arrive at this statement?
Quote:
in a gearbox that is contaminated with water it forms sludge, but it should get caught in the engine oil filter I presume.
The OP is discussing Boron levels at it relates to VOA's verses UOA's wrt engine oils, not transmission oils. Most engines and transmissions are isolated from one another and each have separate filtering systems.
How did skunkship arrive at that statement? HA. Do you read his posts? I've got him on ignore because if he is spreading false info he is posting about something that has nothing to do with the thread.
As far as boron becoming boric acid I remember reading that the type of boron used in oil cannot become boric acid.
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