BMW using brushed motors

[edyvw]

Going back to remark about space. More space for a driver or passenger doesn’t mean more comfort. My minivan has far more space behind the wheel than 3 series. But I will take 3 series anytime for cross country trip before minivan (alone, if I don’t need space behind).
Reason is seating position and how legs rest against other stuff. Minivan is better for late night runs to grocery store to pick up milk. But, after 200 miles of road trip, you realize that drivers comfort was afterthought if thought at all. Honda Pilot is for me the most notorious vehicle when it comes to that. I start getting cramps in muscles after few hundred miles. So, more cramped seating position is not necessarily bad. BMW’s were always built as fast cruisers with primarily driver in mind. And based on photos, it seems this car kept all those qualities.

 

[JeffKeryk]

@OVERKILL I wanted to get your thoughts on another point of view...
We differ on the methodology of purpose built vehicles vs multipurpose built vehicles; specifically pure play EV vs multi drivetrain.
I believe the results show one thing and you seem to feel differently.

Question: Why is BMW investing millions on a technology that many feel is nearing product lifecycle end?
MBZ and Audi are moving to EV fairly soon; BMW says 2030 (at least) and is building V8 engines.

One could make the case the CLAR platform is a sunk cost for a lifecycle ending drivetrain.
BMW is committed to building ICE, EV, Diesel and Hybrid vehicles. That's a lotta competition for resources. Hence the need for the CLAR platform compromise strategy.

BMW sold 2.2M cars in 2021, one of their best years.
Snotty nosed kid Tesla sold almost 1M. Tesla will seriously close that gap this year, or more. Beyond that, watch out.
I have to wonder about BMW's business strategy. It hardly appears forward looking, at least in comparison to MBZ and Audi.
Especially as the world moves towards electric vehicles.

Your thoughts?

 

[OVERKILL]

@OVERKILL I wanted to get your thoughts on another point of view...
We differ on the methodology of purpose built vehicles vs multipurpose built vehicles; specifically pure play EV vs multi drivetrain.
I believe the results show one thing and you seem to feel differently.

Question: Why is BMW investing millions on a technology that many feel is nearing product lifecycle end?
MBZ and Audi are moving to EV fairly soon; BMW says 2030 (at least) and is building V8 engines.

One could make the case the CLAR platform is a sunk cost for a lifecycle ending drivetrain.
BMW is committed to building ICE, EV, Diesel and Hybrid vehicles. That's a lotta competition for resources. Hence the need for the CLAR platform compromise strategy.

BMW sold 2.2M cars in 2021, one of their best years.
Snotty nosed kid Tesla sold almost 1M. Tesla will seriously close that gap this year, or more. Beyond that, watch out.
I have to wonder about BMW's business strategy. It hardly appears forward looking, at least in comparison to MBZ and Audi.
Especially as the world moves towards electric vehicles.

Your thoughts?

My understanding is that BMW will be debuting the replacement for CLAR in 2025, based on what @edyvw has stated. Goal is the same, it will be a shared platform for everything, multiple powertrain options...etc.

This just seems to be their approach.

I don't think we'll see Mercedes or Audi switch to full EV any sooner than BMW does. Until the luxury ICE market evaporates, they will still produce product for it. What they will all do is diversify and expand their electric offerings and, based on the feedback from that; market reception, fine tune what they offer. If an EV of PHEV sells in a certain segment and an ICE vehicle no longer does, we may see that option eliminated. That's how I expect it to progress.

Tesla will continue to do what they do, which is grow customers via the market that wants Tesla vehicles. They don't have the same sort of transition because they aren't part of that legacy system.

By using the modular "lego like" architecture BMW has gone with, it makes them more flexible in what they can offer in EV's versus Audi and MB if they aren't doing the same thing; if they are using dedicated platforms or tweaking existing platforms. IMHO, that may make BMW more dynamic in this space, but we probably won't know the results of this approach for another few years at least.

It's a fascinating space to watch, as it is clearly growing, and we are seeing very different entries into it from the different marques all trying to get those "EV" customers but none of them 100% sure what that customer actually wants. This brings us back to our interaction here where clearly what I want in an EV differs significantly what you want in one. That's the minefield these companies are trying to navigate and do so in a way that doesn't bankrupt them by betting on the wrong horse or horses.

BMW has always been niche and the fact that 2.2 million vehicles for the BMW brand (2.5 for the BMW group) is a record, really highlights that. Ford sold almost 1.1 million F-150 trucks alone in 2018 in comparison. But that 2.2 million also makes BMW the #1 premium brand, which shows how small that segment really is.

Tesla is also niche, at least right now, but they are in the enviable position of having a product that is in high demand and that the people that want it, don't own. While "every a$$hole has a BMW" at present from the pool that wants one, Tesla doesn't have that problem. BMW is trying to steal customers from MB, Audi and future Tesla buyers, while also trying to encourage their existing buyers to trade-up/trade-in. Not even in the same ballpark for growth.

 

[edyvw]

Sinple: EV infrastructure is not going to be fully ready for next 30yrs. The US has only 3% of world population. BMW might sell only EV in the US in 15yrs, and bunch of V8’s in the Middle East etc.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Now for the correct answer... BMW is in trouble. They are in a small market, as @OVERKILL pointed out. Tesla outsells them in the markets they compete in. Tesla is hugely profitable (just wait for Q4 results) and can use that to beat its competitors on price. That's leverage.
Not to mention 2 new, state of the art factories, one of which is in Berlin. Giga Berlin will make hundreds of thousands of the Model Y and millions of battery cells. Batteries are the biggest cost in an EV; vertical integration baby!

BMW's margins are maybe 20% in a great year. Tesla is north is 30%; that's Porsche and Ferrari territory. And with economies of scale, those margins will only increase.
Legacy vs future. The auto industry is at an inflection point. As such, the business practices and strategies that carried a company to this point are no longer appropriate going forward.

Is this the correct answer or just a business outlook perspective? Guess we'll see. All good.

 

[JHZR2]

Read the article. Basically they said they can get better power/performance vs brushless. They also mention the technology is "greener" because it doesn't rely on rare-earth magnets. I'm calling BS on that one because the biggest elephant in the room regarding rare earth elements is the battery pack. From my experience with the brand (20 yrs) they've probably managed to gain better performance along with the required planned obsolescence. Who knows how long the motors will last. 150k miles? 200k miles? BMW is a "luxury performance brand" so it'll be interesting to see how their motor technology compares to the rest of the industry (Tesla, VW, Hyundai, Ford, etc).

There is something to be said about the system level performance of a brushed motor vs brushless/pm. We know in theory pm is smaller and lighter. If you don’t require those considerations, why take the added cost?

 

[nthach]

The BMW has voice commands; heck the X3 we had as a loaner took voice commands. Yes, Tesla's OTA update platform is so far, the most advanced on the market, no argument there, how much is that going to matter to Joe Average consumer and not a tech junkie?

The Bimmer has both AirPlay and Android auto, wirelessly, as well as wireless charging. That's an advantage.
People like buttons. I like buttons and I'm 41 and have worked in IT for over 20 years. Same reason I preferred the Blackberry keyboard over my current iPhone 12, buttons are simply better for some things.

When we speak of "platform" here, this isn't a J-Body Cavalier vs Cimarron. The CLAR platform has a massive number of vehicles built on it; everything that BMW produces from the 7-series through to the 2 series, including the X3, X5, X7...etc leverages this architecture.

I’m on the later end of the millennial spectrum - and while I think the Tesla UX/UI is cool, I prefer tactile, physical HMI for somethings like shifting and the most common things you do in a car. The Lexus Remote Touch interface is a hot mess - my parents have it in their RX. It sucks. Even I figured out Mercedes COMAND and BMW iDrive quicker. I still think touch screens are the way to go vs. trying to emulate a mouse or touchpad in a car. For a brand whose clientele is old(Lexus), it’s a bone-headed decision to ditch touchscreens.

When people think of platform sharing, they think of GM and Ford using it to cut costs and enable badge engineering - like Cavalier/Cimmaron, Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade, Taurus/Continental and Expedition/Navigator. The way BMW, VAG, Mercedes and more recently Toyota is doing it is not only to cut down on costs and product development but also the “feel” and “personality” for that particular brand is kept mostly intact. VW has done a good job with making MQB and MLB underpin everything from a mass-market VW/Seat/Skoda to a premium Audi and even an Bentley or Lambo(MLB). BMW’s taken a similar approach as VW - an RWD platform for their mainline, and a new FWD one for their “entry line”(Mini and the 1/2 Series). Both have adapted them to electrification.

It’ll be interesting to see Toyota’s TNGA platform go electric - the new Subaru Solterra is TNGA-E based, it doesn’t use the Subaru Global Platform. but so far, TNGA did improve the Camry and Prius dynamically. Toyota did take a page out of the VW/BMW playbook and split TNGA into the FWD base, a RWD version for Lexus RWD cars(TNGA-L) which also underpins the new Mirai(it’s no longer Prius/Corolla based) and a BOF variant used on the new Tundra and Land Cruiser 300 Series.

 

[edyvw]

Now for the correct answer... BMW is in trouble. They are in a small market, as @OVERKILL pointed out. Tesla outsells them in the markets they compete in. Tesla is hugely profitable (just wait for Q4 results) and can use that to beat its competitors on price. That's leverage.
Not to mention 2 new, state of the art factories, one of which is in Berlin. Giga Berlin will make hundreds of thousands of the Model Y and millions of battery cells. Batteries are the biggest cost in an EV; vertical integration baby!

BMW's margins are maybe 20% in a great year. Tesla is north is 30%; that's Porsche and Ferrari territory. And with economies of scale, those margins will only increase.
Legacy vs future. The auto industry is at an inflection point. As such, the business practices and strategies that carried a company to this point are no longer appropriate going forward.

Is this the correct answer or just a business outlook perspective? Guess we'll see. All good.

How is that Tesla insecurity phenomenon working for you?
In order for Tesla to compete with BMW they need to make ICE too. Which would be really funny. BMW can sell car in Dubai, Lagos and Nizhy Novogord. Tesla cannot.
There is more to a car than range for example. Tesla still has to learn how to actually assemble vehicle. Tesla customers will move to next best thing that allows them ticket to certain social clubs as soon as it shows up. It is like refrigerator, who cars what brand it is as long as it does what it supposed to do. That is problem for Tesla. What is it? What does it represent? Nothing. The goal of Tesla is full self driving car so customer can do what? Play more video games?
There is world beyond Bay area.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Now for the correct answer... BMW is in trouble. They are in a small market, as @OVERKILL pointed out. Tesla outsells them in the markets they compete in. Tesla is hugely profitable (just wait for Q4 results) and can use that to beat its competitors on price. That's leverage.
Not to mention 2 new, state of the art factories, one of which is in Berlin. Giga Berlin will make hundreds of thousands of the Model Y and millions of battery cells. Batteries are the biggest cost in an EV; vertical integration baby!

BMW's margins are maybe 20% in a great year. Tesla is north is 30%; that's Porsche and Ferrari territory. And with economies of scale, those margins will only increase.
Legacy vs future. The auto industry is at an inflection point. As such, the business practices and strategies that carried a company to this point are no longer appropriate going forward.

Is this the correct answer or just a business outlook perspective? Guess we'll see. All good.

Ya. That will change. I'm still amazed at the deal Tesla received in China. No tie-up with a local company was unprecendented.

 

[PimTac]

Sinple: EV infrastructure is not going to be fully ready for next 30yrs. The US has only 3% of world population. BMW might sell only EV in the US in 15yrs, and bunch of V8’s in the Middle East etc.

BMW is playing it smart as are other automakers. By bringing in a single platform that accommodates EV and ICE, they know that despite all the announcements of banning ICE vehicles and the big push to EV, it will not happen. The powers to be will have to pull back their expectations as those deadlines get closer.

It is a big world out there.

 

[PandaBear]

Ya. That will change. I'm still amazed at the deal Tesla received in China. No tie-up with a local company was unprecendented.

The stories I read outside US is that the Chinese gov was not happy with those EV startups acting like a bunch of immature corrupted businesses, bribing local gov to get freebies and never deliver anything. Since this is a national energy security matter and they want to get around their lacking in ICE, they basically let Tesla have their way on running the business as long as it is made in China. Free land, bypass redtape, no communist regulation (as long as you don't trash talk), and then use them as a measuring stick to get NIO, BYD, WuLing, etc to perform as expected.

Once there's enough R&D in China they also get a talent pool to recruit from to jumpstart their own EV development too. Same goes for those Chinese EV companies, if they don't pay their people well they would end up going across the street to work for Tesla. Competition is good.

 

[nthach]

Ya. That will change. I'm still amazed at the deal Tesla received in China. No tie-up with a local company was unprecendented.

IP is one thing in China - but an EV is more commodized than a ICE. Tesla can have Foxconn, Pegatron or Wistron make the non-“secret” parts of the car.

OTOH, the CCP wanted their car companies to have a collaboration with foreign OEMs. Hence GM China, between GM and SAIC, Dongfeng Honda, BMW Brilliance and Toyota’s collab in China.

 

[nthach]

and then use them as a measuring stick to get NIO, BYD, WuLing, etc to perform as expected.

BYD doesn’t need to worry about Tesla. They have a partnership with Toyota on batteries and they are more known for the BEV buses. BYD’s buses in the US are putting Gillig, ENC(Rev Group), New Flyer and NovaBus on notice. Many long-time Gillig and New Flyer clients are buying BYD.

 

[PandaBear]

BYD doesn’t need to worry about Tesla. They have a partnership with Toyota on batteries and they are more known for the BEV buses. BYD’s buses in the US are putting Gillig, ENC(Rev Group), New Flyer and NovaBus on notice. Many long-time Gillig and New Flyer clients are buying BYD.

I am not sure how competitive the US bus companies are, but around the world most of the double deckers and buses I have seen are European and Chinese. These companies aren't really on the top 10 on international market:

https://www.carlogos.org/reviews/largest-coach-bus-manufacturers.html

I think BYD is aiming for a different long term goal than Tesla (latest and greatest, highest profit market so they can fund the latest and greatest R&D). BYD is probably aiming to be the EVs of Toyota (good quality, reasonable price). NIO would probably be aiming for Tesla but let's see how it goes, I don't know if its CEO is as much a madman as Elon or has the charisma to pull the team together the same way.

 

[PandaBear]

IP is one thing in China - but an EV is more commodized than a ICE. Tesla can have Foxconn, Pegatron or Wistron make the non-“secret” parts of the car.

OTOH, the CCP wanted their car companies to have a collaboration with foreign OEMs. Hence GM China, between GM and SAIC, Dongfeng Honda, BMW Brilliance and Toyota’s collab in China.

They do not want to be another Philippine, Malaysia, or Thailand. Cars are made there but they never learned to make their own cars. So in the end they want a partnership, to at least make the "cheap and low tech" part of the cars. Last I heard they still weren't good yet designing their own engines and transmissions.

So maybe that's why they have a desperate push to EVs.

 

[nthach]

I am not sure how competitive the US bus companies are, but around the world most of the double deckers and buses I have seen are European and Chinese. These companies aren't really on the top 10 on international market:

https://www.carlogos.org/reviews/largest-coach-bus-manufacturers.html

I think BYD is aiming for a different long term goal than Tesla (latest and greatest, highest profit market so they can fund the latest and greatest R&D). BYD is probably aiming to be the EVs of Toyota (good quality, reasonable price). NIO would probably be aiming for Tesla but let's see how it goes, I don't know if its CEO is as much a madman as Elon or has the charisma to pull the team together the same way.

The US/Canada transit bus market is pretty unique - except for a low-floor front, the American transit bus hasn’t changed since the GM New Look/RTS and Flxible Metro. New Flyer tried to bring over a Belgian low-floor design but instead created their own stepped low-floor in the 1990s based largely off their high-floor chassis. New Flyer did buy out Alexander Dennis, Volvo owns Canada’s NovaBus and Prevost Car. VanHool has tried to break into the US market with some success for the tour market but all but gone for the US transit market.

I think BYD might be the more “innovative” battery maker - they brought LiPoFe4 chemistry to mass production. Supposedly it’s safer than Li-Co chemistry used in current Li-Ion/Li-Po batteries.

 

[nthach]

They do not want to be another Philippine, Malaysia, or Thailand. Cars are made there but they never learned to make their own cars. So in the end they want a partnership, to at least make the "cheap and low tech" part of the cars. Last I heard they still weren't good yet designing their own engines and transmissions.

So maybe that's why they have a desperate push to EVs.

Thailand is now the biggest auto exporter in Southeast Asia now that Australia is no longer building cars and GM pulled the plug on Holden(which was being supplied by GM Korea and Opel). However, Toyota is still supplying Australia with the Highlander(Kluger) from Indiana.

 

[PimTac]

Thailand is now the biggest auto exporter in Southeast Asia now that Australia is no longer building cars and GM pulled the plug on Holden(which was being supplied by GM Korea and Opel). However, Toyota is still supplying Australia with the Highlander(Kluger) from Indiana.

Part of that might be that Thailand has a more reliable power supply to those factories than does the Philippines. I don’t know about Malaysia.

 

[PandaBear]

Part of that might be that Thailand has a more reliable power supply to those factories than does the Philippines. I don’t know about Malaysia.

Malay is actually the more stable one out of these nations. You rarely see terrorist bombing or coups, and it seems like their politics despite never being popular among everyone (of the 3 major ethnic groups) somehow found a compromise.

Still, you don't see any homegrown brands for these nations, just foreign companies setting up factories there. I think China wants to not settle for being an outsource manufacturer forever and that's why the "partnership" requirement.

 

[twouvakind]

Interesting. Gives a "service" component of course, as those will need to be replaced at some point.

A BCI, I wonder if they have a BLM? No doubt squirrelled away in some software.