BMW using brushed motors

[OVERKILL]

We know at certain speed it outperformed THAT modified model 3.

Well, it should, it has more HP, just like the Rivian outrunning the TRX, despite being heavier. That's expected.

We also know its top speed limited lower so it will hit an electronic wall where the tesla wont (or the tesla wall is higher ) .
It was claimed that they dont want it to outrun other models. so they hobble it.

We also know these can typically be removed. The US market E39 M5 was speed limited to 155Mph IIRC, but the car could do 190. By the time the one I owned was in my hands that limit was no longer in place.

But yes, they joke about that in the video, that eventually, the Tesla would come back by once the bimmer hit the speed limiter.

We have 2 independent entities that show its less efficient - the guy that tested it in the other thread - and ABRP has pegged its MPKWH as lower which aligns with the test we've seen.

I was clear in how I broke out the efficiency here. There's a difference between the MOTOR being less efficient (what was claimed):

If the brushed motor actually increased efficiency the car would be more efficient than its competitors.

less efficient motor

And the CAR being less efficient because of other factors, such as the fact it weighs 800lbs more and was styled to look like a BMW, not dominate a wind tunnel.

Both of those things explain the poorer mile per kWh performance without us having to resort to speculation about the motor itself being less efficient, something I don't think we have sufficient data on to draw such a conclusion. Is it possible? Sure. It's also possible it's more efficient or a complete wash. What we do know for sure is that the car weighs a LOT more and has a pretty flat front, which definitely can't help on wind resistance.

 

[UncleDave]

Well, it should, it has more HP, just like the Rivian outrunning the TRX, despite being heavier. That's expected.

We also know these can typically be removed. The US market E39 M5 was speed limited to 155Mph IIRC, but the car could do 190. By the time the one I owned was in my hands that limit was no longer in place.

But yes, they joke about that in the video, that eventually, the Tesla would come back by once the bimmer hit the speed limiter.

I was clear in how I broke out the efficiency here. There's a difference between the MOTOR being less efficient (what was claimed):



And the CAR being less efficient because of other factors, such as the fact it weighs 800lbs more and was styled to look like a BMW, not dominate a wind tunnel.

Both of those things explain the poorer mile per kWh performance without us having to resort to speculation about the motor itself being less efficient, something I don't think we have sufficient data on to draw such a conclusion. Is it possible? Sure. It's also possible it's more efficient or a complete wash. What we do know for sure is that the car weighs a LOT more and has a pretty flat front, which definitely can't help on wind resistance.

On plus side - the BMW side is theoretically the tune-ability - which we haven't yet seen demonstrated but they may be able to do cool things
(press a button for 5 second bursts of more power etcetera....)

You bring up a good point - with so many things adding up to " efficiency" - does it matter if a brand leads in one area if the whole unit is comprised by others?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Well, we know it outruns the Model 3 Performance once you get past a certain speed. I'm not sure if we know the motor is less efficient, we do know it is different. The car is a lot heavier, its aerodynamics are likely not as good, so that makes the car overall, less efficient on a mile per kWh basis, which likely also explains why it is fitted with a larger battery.

What is old tech? It has a HUD (the Tesla doesn't) and is extremely well appointed. This isn't a recycled BMW interior, it's new, despite being on a platform that is shared with other vehicles.

Yes, BMW didn't go ground-up (neither did Audi with the e-tron, or Ford with the Mach-E). We are going to see shared platforms from legacy automakers, that's a given as they work their way into producing more and more EV's. Tesla doesn't have that "problem" because they don't produce ICE or hybrid vehicles. But they've had their own share of problems with fit and finish, breaking control arms, brakes that don't hold up to track days...etc. A ground-up EV is no less prone to issues than one based on a shared platform, in fact it may be moreso if that shared platform is already reasonably mature/sorted.

BMW did something different from everyone else with the motors. I'm not sure if that's a best effort or not. I also don't think we can say it isn't their best effort just because the car shares a platform with some others. Platform sharing has been around forever and employed by traditional automakers with all manner of vehicles. It's their way of doing things, Tesla has their way. As EV's become more popular/successful we'll likely see some that don't have crossovers. That being said, a platform can be designed from the ground-up for myriad powertrain options. The DT RAM chassis was designed for gas, hybrid and full EV just as an example. Some of these marques have been thinking about this for quite a while, even if they are behind on the execution.

Good points; lemme tak a shot.
Efficiency - Bigger battery to make up for less efficient design overall including drivetrain (as shown in computed results).
Old tech - Tesla has leading OTA updates, faster infotainment interface. Voice commands. Buttons vs interface. Legacy cars owners may struggle with iPad interface but ask any person under 30 which is better. Or what they want...
If you don't build a pure play product, you are building a set of compromises. This makes improvements more complicated, difficult and costly. This is where, IMO, BMW made a critical mistake. Sure, car companies have shared platforms since the 1900's, but this is not a Chevelle Tempest Cutlass product. The BMW was designed as an ICE front engine and transmission RWD vehicle. EV motor placement is completely different. Even interior seating is compromized. And the Beemer is far more expensive.

I would say my biggest disagreement with you is BMW's choice to use the existing platform. IMO, that offered a quick way to get a competiting car to market, but that's all. From an EV standpoint, it is a cludge. I thought BMW would come out with a Tesla beater; they took a shortcut that buys them very little going forward.

The Beemer is an electrified 3/4 Series. Teslas are futuristic; they are the future.
"Wait till the big guys get in the game..."

 

[edyvw]

Even the Ford "Mustang" posts better numbers.

And?

 

[edyvw]

On plus side - the BMW side is theoretically the tune-ability - which we haven't yet seen demonstrated but they may be able to do cool things
(press a button for 5 second bursts of more power etcetera....)

You bring up a good point - with so many things adding up to " efficiency" - does it matter if a brand leads in one area if the whole unit is comprised by others?

The reason why there is potential is that BMW is keeping it strictly in line with the performance of M3. M3 is for them much more important vehicle currently then EV.

 

[edyvw]

Good points; lemme tak a shot.
Efficiency - Bigger battery to make up for less efficient design overall including drivetrain (as shown in computed results).
Old tech - Tesla has leading OTA updates, faster infotainment interface. Voice commands. Buttons vs interface. Legacy cars owners may struggle with iPad interface but ask any person under 30 which is better. Or what they want...
If you don't build a pure play product, you are building a set of compromises. This makes improvements more complicated, difficult and costly. This is where, IMO, BMW made a critical mistake. Sure, car companies have shared platforms since the 1900's, but this is not a Chevelle Tempest Cutlass product. The BMW was designed as an ICE front engine and transmission RWD vehicle. EV motor placement is completely different. Even interior seating is compromized. And the Beemer is far more expensive.

I would say my biggest disagreement with you is BMW's choice to use the existing platform. IMO, that offered a quick way to get a competiting car to market, but that's all. From an EV standpoint, it is a cludge. I thought BMW would come out with a Tesla beater; they took a shortcut that buys them very little going forward.

The Beemer is an electrified 3/4 Series. Teslas are futuristic; they are the future.
"Wait till the big guys get in the game..."

They are introducing a new platform that will be modular EV/ICE in 2025, together with new ICE engines.
They did not make a critical mistake. They are in business 117 years, and for example know how to defrost windows, or have suspension for 200mph vehicles etc.
They are in the business of making cars and money and considering they just posted record numbers, they are far from critical mistakes.

 

[Vercingetorix]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bmw-i4-m50-new-strategy-electrification-11642708705

 

[JeffKeryk]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bmw-i4-m50-new-strategy-electrification-11642708705

Interesting... That article makes the same points (BMW's compromise disadvantage throughout) I made.

 

[UncleDave]

They are introducing a new platform that will be modular EV/ICE in 2025, together with new ICE engines.
They did not make a critical mistake. They are in business 117 years, and for example know how to defrost windows, or have suspension for 200mph vehicles etc.
They are in the business of making cars and money and considering they just posted record numbers, they are far from critical mistakes.

Whats their profit on this EV?

 

[JeffKeryk]

They are introducing a new platform that will be modular EV/ICE in 2025, together with new ICE engines.
They did not make a critical mistake. They are in business 117 years, and for example know how to defrost windows, or have suspension for 200mph vehicles etc.
They are in the business of making cars and money and considering they just posted record numbers, they are far from critical mistakes.

The article compares the i4 M50 and Model 3 Performance and while the BMW is newer and far more expensive, it falls short of the 5 year old Tesla. I suggest that is primarily due to using the ICE platform, as evidenced by this video.
BMW is a storied, highly respected car company. I expected more, much more actually.
IMO, that's a critical mistake. You never get a 2nd chance at a first impression. BMW is leaning on its name.

For those who buy this car, I'm sure they will love them. But as far as new and forward looking, it is an electrified 3/4 Series. That's not necessarily bad, maybe even good in many ways. But it's not great.

 

[edyvw]

Whats their profit on this EV?

I have no idea. Who knows whether they are making profit on this at all considering they deliver fully assembled vehicles to customers.

 

[edyvw]

The article compares the i4 M50 and Model 3 Performance and while the BMW is newer and far more expensive, it falls short of the 5 year old Tesla. I suggest that is primarily due to using the ICE platform, as evidenced by this video.
BMW is a storied, highly respected car company. I expected more, much more actually.
IMO, that's a critical mistake. You never get a 2nd chance at a first impression. BMW is leaning on its name.

For those who buy this car, I'm sure they will love them. But as far as new and forward looking, it is an electrified 3/4 Series. That's not necessarily bad, maybe even good in many ways. But it's not great.

I don’t think they care about impression. It is proven that product is one that sells, not impression of the product.
And yes, they will keep 3 series, even when things move completely electric.
Remember, they are not Tesla. They are not reinventing wheel.

 

[UncleDave]

This kind of "also ran" is what you get with retrofit.

Nobody has built a profitable competitive EV without a ground up design.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I don’t think they care about impression. It is proven that product is one that sells, not impression of the product.
And yes, they will keep 3 series, even when things move completely electric.
Remember, they are not Tesla. They are not reinventing wheel.

Agreed. But, IMO, that is their mistake. With BMW's legendary engineering, why are they building compromized vehicles?
Interesting times ahead! I wonder what Lexus, for example, will do?

 

[edyvw]

Agreed. But, IMO, that is their mistake. With BMW's legendary engineering, why are they building compromized vehicles?
Interesting times ahead! I wonder what Lexus, for example, will do?

They are not building anything. They are experimenting. EV’s are still in infancy. BMW core customers want inline six engines.
There is still a lot of time for ICE. Remember what Jeremy Clarkson said: difference between EV and ICE is like cooking potato in microwave compared to cooking it in agda.
BMW just outlined plans for ICE until 2050.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

... I wonder what Lexus, for example, will do?

After the Lexus UX300e?

 

[JeffKeryk]

After the Lexus UX300e?

Lexus gave me a UX as a loaner. I felt like I was in a crackerbox coffin. Hated it; no thank you. The NX is far better and the RX is the one to get.
I guess I shouldn't hold my breath for a GS350e F Sport, huh?

 

[edyvw]

Lexus gave me a UX as a loaner. I felt like I was in a crackerbox coffin. Hated it; no thank you. The NX is far better and the RX is the one to get.
I guess I shouldn't hold my breath for a GS350e F Sport, huh?

I feel that way in ANY Lexus.
I will though give benefit of doubt to IS500.

 

[UncleDave]

After the Lexus UX300e?

View attachment 85257

Wasn't Toyota shooting off a bunch of mouth music about a solid state battery?

Guess the Mirai isnt working out or we'd see a lexus version of it.

That said I loved my Lexus hybrid.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I feel that way in ANY Lexus.
I will though give benefit of doubt to IS500.

I drive our GS350 F Sport most of the time. Just put new Pilot 4S, split sizes, all around.
I love this car. Quality and reliability!

We swapped wifey's RX450h for the F Sport version. It is a different car. I am not much into SUVs, but this is a nice one. And you can do a lot with one... The RX is Lexus' biggest seller.
The problem I have with Lexus is all the buttons. After driving the Tesla, with its clean interior, voice commands, etc, I find Lexus interior cluttered and kinda confusing. But the HUD and BSM are far better than the little Tesla.

The IS is a sardine can. Too dang small.