BMW Synthetic 5W-30, 9281miles, 2007 BMW 335i

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orionredwing

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Hi everyone,

New user, first post. What a great site!

I searched, and there doesn't seem to be many UOAs on BMW Synthetic on 335is, so I wanted to contribute.

Car: 2007 BMW 335i
Miles on Car: 66K
Mileage on Oil: 9,281, w/ 2 track days
Oil in Service: 5-6 months
Oil Capacity: 7 qts, 0 qts added

Engine Type: N54 I-6 3.0L Twin-Turbo
Engine Modifications: Engine tune, catless Downpipes, upgraded Intercooler, STOCK exhaust, STOCK intake
Horsepower: 300HP stock, ~410HP as modified

Driving Style: 3-4 WOTs every week, otherwise pretty sedate, mostly rush hour traffic. 2K miles were long distance up and down between San Francisco and Los Angeles. 2 full track days (~180 minutes on track).

Despite the 15K factory OCI, most BMW forum members have been changing at 7.5K intervals. I've been averaging about 6.8K miles OCI, but this latest one was delayed due to the +2K miles long-distance between the Bay Area & LA for the holidays.

CONCERNS: I was curious what OCI is optimized for my driving style. But most importantly, I was concerned about the stress to my engine from track days, especially when considering my mods.

QUESTION: Why does Blackstone say at 9,281 miles, it looks like typical wear at only 4,100 miles? Does this reinforce the fact that except for track days, I believe myself to be a pretty sedate driver most of the time? But my elements read a bit higher than the universal averages... Lastly, I've always wondered if I should change oil after every track day, as many do. Although I understand it never hurts to do so, it seems Blackstone thinks I'm ok for 10K miles on this oil sample. What are your thoughts? To be honest, I'm pretty excited if I could do 10K OCIs w/ 2 track days included!

Would greatly appreciate the expert comments from this forum. Thanks!


BMWSynthetic5W-309281miles07335i.jpg
 
I don't exactly know why they mentioned that your 9K+ interval was equivalent to the wear #'s at 4100mi. Either way these are EXCELLENT wear #'s for the track and mods to your BMW. The oil thickened a bit so it was due for a change but Air/oil filtration is great and you have a good car on your hands...I don't think anyone can ague against that! You can easily keep up the 9K changes unless you do a lot of track runs.
 
welcome2.gif
to BITOG!

The first thing you should know is that Blackstone's method for getting wear numbers is of limited utility because it only catches particles in a very narrow range of sizes. Thus, without a complimentary suite of optional-extra tests, their basic UOAs are severely limited in what they can tell you. There is no indication of a problem here, but that doesn't necessarily mean all is well (although all probably is well in reality).

Incidentally, this means anything they tell you about your engine "wearing nicely" etc. isn't worth much.
wink.gif


That said, these UOAs can be useful if you have a series of them with the same oil at similar intervals. Although the numbers themselves aren't particularly meaningful in isolation, any drastic fluctuation in the wear number profile could indicate something to be aware of. For example, if any of them suddenly increases drastically, that could indicate a problem (most likely that you should shorten your oil change intervals).

In short, if all you want to do is get an idea of how long your OCIs should be, you can't tell from a single basic Blackstone UOA, but a series of them may be informative. If you really want to know more, you really should pony up for a better UOA with a larger suite of tests. But in reality, your car is probably fine.
wink.gif


Thanks for posting. Good luck!
 
Nice results for 9k miles on a twin-turbo engine!

chubbs1, FYI, oil did not thicken - BMW 5W-30 is 12cst out of the bottle, so it essentially didn't thin or thicken at all!
 
Thanks very much for posting this. Ive only posted one UOA on my 2011 135i (N55) so far - the factory fill. You can see it plus a VOA of the BMW oil here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1992964/

Now mine is during breakin, but key is to notice the viscosity change. I had 1.9% fuel, which is not uncommon. 99% of this OCI was highway operation, at operating temperature - plenty of tine to drive fuel and moisture off if it was going to go.

Which tune are you using? I have to wonder if the tunes lean things out a bit compared to the factory, helping to reduce dilution overall. Since these engines are designed to make torque from just off fast idle, there needs to be a good amount of boost down low where people operate day-to-day. Thus, for protection, the engine runs a bit rich in its range from day to day. I have to wonder if the tune cuts this back a bit helping with the dilution.

Regardless, the oil was at an ideal time to change, with TBN at 2. I dont personally like taking it too low.

Thanks for sharing, looks good.
 
I believe Blackstone's comments refer to 4100 miles being their average "mi on oil" value for this engine to go along with the "universal averages" column. Sample at 2X their average interval and, all things being average, you should expect to see about 2X average wear products.

That still doesn't explain the 3.0 / 3.5 discrepancy, that might be worth an email to Blackstone if you care about the Universal Averages data.

On a side note, how interesting would it be to see a report from Blackstone detailing the average oil distance per engine model? In other words, Blackstone customers owning ____ engine sample/change oil every ____ miles on average...
 
Looks good for a "fake synthetic".

I assume you maintained top-off, how much was that?

It's a big sump plus the top-off, so some numbers are higher than they could be, imo.

If you're tracking, you should be on a 40 weight. I'd be trying M1 10w-40 HM at 6-8k.
 
Originally Posted By: orionredwing
I searched, and there doesn't seem to be many UOAs on BMW Synthetic on 335is, so I wanted to contribute.


Thanks for posting this! I think there's not many BMW UOA because the owners don't want to get their hands dirty.
smile.gif


Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
If you're tracking, you should be on a 40 weight. I'd be trying M1 10w-40 HM at 6-8k.


I have the N52 engine in my Z4 and I switched from the BMW 5-30 to M1 0w-40. I'll post my last UOA when I get it from Blackstone, then follow up with a UOA from my M1.

Originally Posted By: 07Wolfie
On a side note, how interesting would it be to see a report from Blackstone detailing the average oil distance per engine model? In other words, Blackstone customers owning ____ engine sample/change oil every ____ miles on average...


Wow it would be great if Blackstone published their compiled data. Problem is data averages could be skewed by so many different factors. I can only imagine how many flame threads would be started by that data.
shocked.gif
 
Thanks for everyone's response; I appreciate your feedback!

Originally Posted By: typ901
why does your report state your vehicle is a 3.5L (M30) ?


Good catch! I emailed Blackstone yesterday w/ the correct Engine Type specified in my first post, and they responded this morning. They'll email an updated file this evening w/ revised universal averages. Looks like I can't edit my initial post, so I'll link to a new reply later.

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
I don't exactly know why they mentioned that your 9K+ interval was equivalent to the wear #'s at 4100mi.


Thanks for commenting on my question. While I was emailing for the above issue, I decided to ask them about this as well.

Blackstone Response: "Universal averages show typical wear from this engine after XXXX miles on the oil," In this case, XXXX = 4100 miles.

The revised UOA will reflect the correct universal averages.

Blackstone's Analysis of revised Engine Type: The new averages show typical wear after about 5,200 miles on the oil. You ran your oil much longer at 9,200 miles, so we would expect to see some wear higher than averages. That's not really the case since most wear is below average (except for copper), so that means your engine wears better than most.

Originally Posted By: addyguy
Nice results for 9k miles on a twin-turbo engine!

chubbs1, FYI, oil did not thicken - BMW 5W-30 is 12cst out of the bottle, so it essentially didn't thin or thicken at all!


Thanks, and Great info! Looks like Blackstone didn't know this fact either, as reflected in their follow-up response.

Blackstone Follow-up: Our original suggestion was to stick with 10,000 miles on your next oil, and for now, I think that still applies. Wear metals all look good, but the viscosity was thick and the additives may show some signs of heat damage, so we'd like to see you get a clean report before adding too many more miles on the oil, just to monitor your engine and make sure everything is okay. If things look good in your next report, we might suggest adding more miles then.

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Which tune are you using? I have to wonder if the tunes lean things out a bit compared to the factory, helping to reduce dilution overall.


I'm using Vishnu Tuning's PROCede v5. I'm sure you're on 1addicts.com (just as I'm on e90post.com), so you know the PROcede has auto-tuning capability to adjust boost, AFRs, and Ign Timing on the fly. Unless you get a custom tune, most tunes are generic and not optimized for your car. I'm thinking the auto-tune capability does help reduce fuel dilution, and in general, is better for my engine and turbos overall.

Side Comment: I've run this tune for 65K out of my 66K miles, and was very concerned about premature engine wear, as we've all heard horror stories of improperly tuned cars blowing engines or turbos. Another big reason why I wanted to do some UOAs; from d00df00d's comment, it looks like there are limitations in what a UOA can tell you. But at the same time, I think a UOA should warn me of any BIG issues, right?

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
If you're tracking, you should be on a 40 weight. I'd be trying M1 10w-40 HM at 6-8k.

Originally Posted By: santov
I have the N52 engine in my Z4 and I switched from the BMW 5-30 to M1 0w-40. I'll post my last UOA when I get it from Blackstone, then follow up with a UOA from my M1.


Thanks guys for the suggestions. I'm a big fan of M1, and have used it for over 10 yrs in all my previous cars. Looking forward to seeing your UOA. But for now, I'm planning on sticking w/ BMW Synthetic so I can get a better long-term baseline (next 30-40K miles). From everyone's response so far, it looks like this oil is working for me.

Whew, long reply. Thanks again all.
 
Originally Posted By: orionredwing
Another big reason why I wanted to do some UOAs; from d00df00d's comment, it looks like there are limitations in what a UOA can tell you. But at the same time, I think a UOA should warn me of any BIG issues, right?

Not necessarily. That's my point.

Do you want the long explanation, or the short one?
 
Either is great, thanks. I read the articles on the main page, which was why I thought I understood what you meant by limitations. But still, I assumed I can detect early signs of BIG problems if all of a sudden, a UOA comes back with readings in the hundreds of ppm...while under similar driving conditions.

Appreciate your time; as I mentioned above, early detection of potential catostrophic failures is a concern, since I track a modded car.

I'd like to find a realistic middle ground between peace of mind, and extreme monitoring. How much more would those extensive tests cost? I thought the cost of UOAs very reasonable for that peace of mind; would you guys recommend continuing to sample?

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: orionredwing
Another big reason why I wanted to do some UOAs; from d00df00d's comment, it looks like there are limitations in what a UOA can tell you. But at the same time, I think a UOA should warn me of any BIG issues, right?

Not necessarily. That's my point.

Do you want the long explanation, or the short one?
 
Originally Posted By: orionredwing
Either is great, thanks. I read the articles on the main page, which was why I thought I understood what you meant by limitations. But still, I assumed I can detect early signs of BIG problems if all of a sudden, a UOA comes back with readings in the hundreds of ppm...while under similar driving conditions.

Appreciate your time; as I mentioned above, early detection of potential catostrophic failures is a concern, since I track a modded car.

Extremely high numbers on a basic Blackstone UOA might indicate a significant problem, but not all problems will show those high numbers. That's why a bad report might tell you something, but a good one doesn't mean all is well.

This is because Blackstone uses ICP spectroscopy, which only catches particles up to about 10 microns in size. That's fine for catching corrosive wear, which can happen if you overextend your OCI and the oil loses its ability to fight acid build-up. Sometimes, a failure that starts small and gets worse over time can also cause
Below is a link to a thread on how a severe problem could go completely undetected by ICP, and how ICP can show extraordinarily high numbers when everything is humming along just fine. The thread also has an excellent contribution by Doug Hillary, who is without a doubt one of the top five experts on this site.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/why-iron-ppm-numbers-are-not-good-wear-indicators.142162/

Another example scenario: It's possible for higher numbers on a Blackstone UOA to indicate lower wear. If your car shows 80 ppm while your buddy's shows 20, it's entirely possible that his engine is shedding metal in big chunks while yours is only producing submicroscopic particles.

This brings us to the next issue: whatever the numbers are, the basic UOA doesn't even give you the necessary information to know whether they are good or bad, let alone why they are what they are. 200 ppm of iron from an overextended OCI isn't a problem; just change the oil sooner next time. 200 ppm of iron when the oil is completely cherry could mean something is mechanically wrong or your tune is out of whack. In order to know, you need to add a TBN to show you how much active additive is left, a TAN to give you an idea of whether the TBN is enough to keep fighting acids, some measure of combustion efficiency to see if your car is in tune, and... The price adds up pretty quickly.

And to cap it all, Blackstone does not carry ISO certification, which undermines the credibility and reliability of their numbers. :-P


Originally Posted By: orionredwing
I'd like to find a realistic middle ground between peace of mind, and extreme monitoring. How much more would those extensive tests cost? I thought the cost of UOAs very reasonable for that peace of mind; would you guys recommend continuing to sample?

To reiterate as a quick preface: Your car probably will be fine, UOA or no UOA.
wink.gif
Even at your current power level, if you are meticulous about keeping it in-tune, don't money shift it or beat the heck out of it at low speeds, and change the oil at sensible intervals, in all likelihood the engine will last longer than you can stand it.

That said, here are a few options.

One is to continue with the basic Blackstone UOAs. Drop the TBN (since it doesn't really tell you anything without a TAN) and just keep monitoring to see if the profile changes. It's not a good way to keep tabs on the inside of your engine, but it should be quite effective as a way to make sure your oil change intervals are sane.

The next step up would be a better UOA package. The best bang-for-the-buck I'm aware of is a Dyson Analysis "raw" test package. It's $60, and it comes with a more complete suite of tests, including wear metals numbers by a more appropriate method than ICP (namely rotrode spectroscopy), from an ISO-certified lab. This is a far more reliable way to keep tabs on your engine because it gives you better numbers, and more of them.

I'm sure there are other labs that offer similar packages; at a bare minimum, I know for sure there are other labs that offer the same tests (if not for the same price). One example for a test to look for (which isn't in the Dyson Raw package) is a PQ index, which is a measurement of iron content that is far more informative than the ppm numbers.

Dyson Analysis also offers a "premium" service for $130, which is the "raw" package plus a customized (and confidential) interpretation from a professional lubrication consultant, with whom you can correspond ad infinitum, and a year's subscription to his weblog where REAL experts post. This is what I use, and I am fairly certain it has paid for itself at least once over; being newly married and on a grad student budget at the moment, this is an important consideration for me. Of course, I have a much older car with many more miles, and since I drive it infrequently I usually only end up doing one or two UOAs per year. So, YMMV.

Again, I am absolutely certain that there are other options. I have seen a UOA on this website from a service run by Mobil. It was thin on the elemental tests but included a PQ index and a few other neat things. I'm not sure if this is something to which the general public has access, but it might be worth a look.



Whew, that was long. Hope it was of some use.
 
Ouch, some minor but significant errors there...

1. ICP spectroscopy's upper particle size limit is not a hard line; it starts to drop off close to 10 microns. For comparison, rotrode spectroscopy doesn't drop off until closer to 15 microns.

2. "Submicroscopic" was the wrong term. I should have said "much smaller" or something.

My apologies. If there are more, hopefully someone else can chime in.
 
What kind of track days are we talking about here?

A few runs down the drag strip? Auto-cross? Circuit racing?

Usually people change their oil BEFORE a track day, to insure the best possible protection against all elements while pushing the engine to its limits.

I frequent the track quite often (time attack, circuit racing) and change my oil Before and After the 4-6 hour long session (using Valvoline's racing juice)

I'd never go to the track with even a few thousand miles on regular street oil, but that's me and my high revving 4 banger.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Whew, that was long. Hope it was of some use.


Wow, what an awesome and informative reply! Thanks a bunch for taking the time to respond. Really appreciate it.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
And to cap it all, Blackstone does not carry ISO certification, which undermines the credibility and reliability of their numbers. :-P


Don't worry too much about ISO certification. I've been auditing suppliers for >10 yrs in the tech industry, and while being ISO ceritifed is nice, it doesn't mean much. While it implies a level of conformance, in reality, there are many ISO certified companies with poor processes. In fact, my best supplier is only ISO compliant. Without knowing how Blackstone runs their business (their internal processes), there's no way to know without an on-site audit.
 
Originally Posted By: Artem
What kind of track days are we talking about here?


I do about 5-10 open track days every year. Just to make this thread even more interesting, here's a link to my latest track video. Sorry, I don't have any cool gauge overlays, nor do I have a loud exhaust, so the adrenalin factor is poor in this video (doesn't look like I'm going too fast)
smile.gif
Still, I live very close to world famous Laguna Seca, and since I know it's a dream for many to visit/drive on this track (Gran Turismo 5 any1?), I hope you enjoy the video. For the experts on here, you know that smooth = fast.

LAGUNA SECA TRACK VIDEO:
(Don't forget to select 1080p on YouTube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbzfmLSPFvk
 
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