BMW R1150RT 2004, Bad Bearings?

[R1150R]

1st analysis. Had my 12K service done by an independent shop. He noticed the engine rattle (as I did) from about 4-5K RPM's while not under a hard load. I thought it may have been loose valves. After the service, things seemed to have settled down (noise wise) but I decided to have this analysis done anyway. Last 2 changes prior to this sample were Mobil 1 V-Twin 20/50. Used a Bosch 3330 filter. As noted, almost 4,800 on the oil in 7 months use. Is the lead/copper indicating bad bearings? High viscosity has me wondering too. Most of the mileage was a trip to Big Bend from Houston this past October (Cool) and a few shorter trips in between. I don't like to go in the heat too much either. Oil temp (for those familiar with the RT) runs as normal @ 6 Bars. It has gotten up to 7 a few times in stop and go but thats it. Any thing else you want to know, please ask. The bike is under factory warranty until October of 07.

I wanted to add, this is my 2nd BMW and as other BMW owners may note, these things do make a lot of noise. The rattle mentioned above was not loud but did seem more that what I was used too.

Oil was sampled at 13,000 miles for this analysis.....still breaking in?


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[fuel tanker man]

I wouldn't worry too much. The Mobil 1 line of oils, for speculated reasons, tend to amplify engine noises. Maybe it's the chemistry of the oil that conducts sound better than other fluids.

I think, though, that I would try another type of oil. It's probably not going to be that hot down in Texas for the next three months or so, so I'd try some Shell Rotella 15W40, or some Havoline 20W50 and see if you don't find that the engine runs quieter, and you may even see a better UOA next time.

This is something you want to solve before the warranty runs out. I feel sure that the Rotella would do you a good job, at least through the cooler months. Then you might go to a 20W50 dino at 2500 mile OCI's in the spring/summer.

I'm not a huge fan of synthetic oils in motorcycles (or cars either for that matter). I've yet to see one outperform a good dino oil when it comes to wear metal numbers, which is the most important consideration.

Your best hope at this point would be that:

1. The noisy engine is owing more to the noisy nature of Mobil 1 synthetic oils, and

2. The Mobil 1's chemistry is not reacting well with the bearings in your engine, hence the elevated wear metals.

I think that by the time a bearing is worn to the point that it's actually making audible noise, you'll see much higher wear metal numbers than you're seeing (copper and lead). So I wouldn't be overly concerned just yet.

Try a run of Rotella (dino, 15W40) Havoline 20W50 and see how she looks in 2500 miles...

Dan

 

[Fatboymoe]

If your bike is still under warranty, you might want the dealer to check the cam chain tensioners. It seems that up until 04, some of them failed and a loud engine rattle would result. I think it's the right side that it happens most often.

These boxer engines are pretty easy on oil and just about any 15-50 or 20-50 will work. I use Mobil 1 15-50 and a Mobil 1 filter and have no problems with consumption. I might use 8oz in 5k miles. I am a big fan of synthetics, especially in motorcycles. Heat is your enemy and they work better than dino oils. Thats why BMW requires synthetic oil in the police versions of the RT.

 

[saab93driver]

IF you notice a lot of clacking at idle on a warm engine get the updated left side came chain tensioner. See the related article/threads here http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/

It made my R1150RS quiet down a lot and I too use M-1 20W50

 

[sunruh]

Quote:

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Heat is your enemy and they work better than dino oils.

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ya know, it's funny when you call up a place and talk with a guy that has 392,000 oil tests in his database and he will flat out disagree with you that synth is better.
jeee, was i really doing that at 3:30pm yesterday?

oh my!

or say you look at your own voa's and uoa's and not one synth has a higher flash point. hmmmmmmmmm

 

[fuel tanker man]

The syns used to have higher flash points, but modern dinos are right there with them--and some dinos even have higher flash points than syns.

The Havoline oils flash at about 520 degress F, IIRC. Most syns I know of are well under 500 degrees, and some are closer to 400 degrees.

If BMW, or any other motorcycle maker is specking syn oils in some of their bikes it's likely because they're afraid that someone would use an antiquated dino and bake it into a paste. But again, with a good dino oil such as Havoline or Pennzoil, there should not be a problem.

Remember, too, that many so called synthetic oils on the market are really only group III dinos with an inflated price. I've even heard that Mobil 1's 15W50 has gone to such a chemistry. And we know that Castrol has used group III bases in most of their Syntec line for years.

Marketing... marketing... marketing...

Dan

 

[Fatboymoe]

It sounds like FTM is in the buisness of marketing of his beloved Havoline. To each his own. My bikes will continue to get Redline and Mobil 1 and will NEVER see a straight dino of any brand again. Not a marketing ploy. Just my preference.

 

[fuel tanker man]

FBM, you got it. I like their oil so much... I bought the company. Not.

All rhetoric aside, when you turn in some UOA's that look as good as the ones I've posted here, your comments will seem more relevant.

Dan

 

[Fatboymoe]

FTM,
I'll spend the money on quality componets rather than UOA's.
No doubt your UOA's are great, but did you ever wonder if it's your Harley thats the star and not your oil? Prove that and then your comments could be taken more seriously.

 

[fuel tanker man]

I do think my engine is better than average, but if the oil I've been using wasn't doing a pretty good job, I don't think the numbers would look near as good as they do.

I got the engine extremely hot on one of those OCI's. It actually got so hot it wanted to keep on running when I tried to shut it off at one point. I had to put the bike in gear and kill the engine with the clutch. If the Havoline could be baked, it would have baked then I would imagine.

Now, someone might make the point that a synthetic oil would have cooled the engine better and it wouldn't have gotten that hot to begin with. I don't know if that's true or not, so that would only be speculation if someone were to say that.

The only other Harley UOA on the board that compares well to my UOAs is an LC 20W50 UOA on a Twin Cam. And that's another dino oil.

I am really of the opinion (and I do admit that it's an opinion) that the dino oil bases allow the ZDDP to adhere better to the extreme pressure points, and when the hydrodynamic film breaks down, the ZDDP is there to pick up the slack. In other words, I think that when the hydrodynamic films breaks through, there may be more EP additive on the surfaces in a dino lubed engine. I know that a lot of folks deride the Crower cam company's recommendation against synthetic oils (bottom of linked page) http://www.crower.com/misc/faq.shtml#h ...but I think they may be onto something. I actually called them recently and inquired as to whether this was old information, and they said that they still do not recommend synthetic oil in the high lift cam applications especially. They say that they've seen excessive cam lobe wear where syns were used.

Does this mean that synthetic oil won't protect a Harley Davidson engine? I'm sure not; syn oils have been running in HD engines pretty well for many years now.

This all said, the two 400,000+ mile Harleys in the museum in Milwaukee both achieved those numbers on regular dino HD 360 oil at 2500 mile OCI's. Neither engine received an overhaul in all those miles. So the bar has been set by dino oil--and it has proven to be more than up to the task of protecting the Harley engine for decades now.

I won't boldly claim that my engine will last longer on dino than another guy's engine will last on a good syn (but if you held my feet to the fire and made me postulate a guess, I'd say that the odds are with the dino engine lasting longer!)--but I will say that there is so precious little difference in performance of dino versus syn in these engines one has to wonder if the syn is really worth it.

To each his own. I just try to base my opinions on as much fact as I can dig up.

Dan

 

[BMWR1150GS]

Quote:

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If your bike is still under warranty, you might want the dealer to check the cam chain tensioners. It seems that up until 04, some of them failed and a loud engine rattle would result. I think it's the right side that it happens most often.

These boxer engines are pretty easy on oil and just about any 15-50 or 20-50 will work. I use Mobil 1 15-50 and a Mobil 1 filter and have no problems with consumption. I might use 8oz in 5k miles. I am a big fan of synthetics, especially in motorcycles. Heat is your enemy and they work better than dino oils. Thats why BMW requires synthetic oil in the police versions of the RT.

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Synthetic or dino.....doesn't matter all that much...most BMW owners change their oil at short intervals anyway.

As for the racket, I have removed the cam chain tensioners and cleaned the bores and reassembled with Rislone, a good engine cleaning additive. Much improved.

Next, check rocker arm shaft end clearance. It is adjustable and setting to the minimum clearance can have very dramatic quieting effects.

Finally, when adjusting valve lash, use two feeler gauges, one under the idle valve bucket, the other under the valve being clearanced. Be very consistent for each valve pair. Equal valve lash on each set of valves is more important than the actual clearance. Equal clearance will produce quieter valves.

Last, boxers are noisy engines due to the thin cases allowed by BMWs excellent pressure casting techniques. Also, there are no steel sleeves in the alloy cylinders...they are plated with Nikasil...again, noisy...but, they wear forever. UOAs? I have not begun yet. Well cared for, the boxer is a 200,000 mile engine before major work is needed.

 

[jonny-b]

FuelTankerMan, why does so many Harley users see/feel improvements in their ride/temperature when shifting from a dino to Amsoil synthetic? This doesn't seem right, considdering your statement that dino is superior over synthetic. Willing to learn, though.

 

[fuel tanker man]

I've used synthetics in the past, and there isn't any perceivable difference in performance that I can tell.

If there is a temperature decrease going from dino to syn (and I'm not conceding that there necessarily is) that apparently does not equate to lower wear metal numbers, because no one is producing any syn UOA's in Harley's which rival the dino UOA's.

I'd rather have higher oil temps and lower wear metal numbers. With synthetics it appears that wear metal numbers are as a rule higher than you see with dino oils. And the wear metal count is the final arbiter.