Blending Versus Mixing

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Using the terms as you've used them, a blender is either a buyer or a maker of commercial basestocks and add packs.

As such, he has almost perfect access to information relevant to formulating a finished oil using these components that will meet a specific set of standards.

Those of us who mix finished oils have access to very little information WRT the interactions of the components of the two or more oils involved.

Therein lies the distinction.

When we mix, we guess, maybe with the aid of a viscosity calculator known to be faulty at the lower end of the temperature scale.

We know almost nothing about add pack compatibility.
We can only hope for the best and will almost certainly end up with an oil inferior to that of any of the finished oils comprising the mix.

I'll still mix oils to use up odds and ends for a shortish warm weather OCI in one of the old beaters.


A good description as well.

And then you have those goofy formulators who blend, do testing, and then send in the finished formulation to a commercial Blender.

When a non-professional takes two commercially available oils and mixes them, he is a Mixer.

 

[turtlevette]

There's no reason we can't all be blenders. You have Lucas which is a thick stock. Available in conventional and synthetic. Find a thin stock. Then you have all the additives on the shelf at the parts store. Have at it.

Its not like we're playing with high voltage. You'd have to screw up pretty bad to ruin an engine.

 

[userfriendly]

Chemistry analogy 101; I have odds and ends of 20 different gun powders. Not enough of each to do much with, but if I mix, I mean blend them together can I just take an average of the burn rates and fly at it, or would I be better to stack one on top of the other?
As asinine this comparison to mixing engine oil and additives sounds, in both cases the outcome is not predictable.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
, in both cases the outcome is not predictable.


Sure it is. We have thousands of oil analysis reports here to understand what does what, what is compatible with what, and good starting points for concentrations of said compounds.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
There's no reason we can't all be blenders. You have Lucas which is a thick stock. Available in conventional and synthetic. Find a thin stock. Then you have all the additives on the shelf at the parts store. Have at it.

Its not like we're playing with high voltage. You'd have to screw up pretty bad to ruin an engine.



This is a false analogy because you're not comparing like ingredients.

Third Party/Over-the-Counter additives DOES NOT equal commercial additives, the concept of which you still have not grasped.

Third Party/Over-the-Counter additives are NOT the same additives we use in formulated lubrcants.

But knock yourself out, it's your engine or transmission and your money.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
, in both cases the outcome is not predictable.


Sure it is. We have thousands of oil analysis reports here to understand what does what, what is compatible with what, and good starting points for concentrations of said compounds.



No we don't.

 

[userfriendly]

Green paint is a blend of blue and yellow. If the blue paint is oil base and the green water, then left to stand, eventually there will be blue paint on top of yellow paint.
Green is a color that occurs in nature, therefore is not a blend of blue and yellow in every case.
Testimonial is not science and should not be allowed here.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Sure it is. We have thousands of oil analysis reports here to understand what does what, what is compatible with what, and good starting points for concentrations of said compounds.

But these used oil analysis don't replace standardized testing in the least, and tell us very little. Viscosity and TBN alone do not an oil make.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
There's no reason we can't all be blenders. You have Lucas which is a thick stock. Available in conventional and synthetic. Find a thin stock. Then you have all the additives on the shelf at the parts store. Have at it.

Its not like we're playing with high voltage. You'd have to screw up pretty bad to ruin an engine.



This is a false analogy because you're not comparing like ingredients.

Third Party/Over-the-Counter additives DOES NOT equal commercial additives, the concept of which you still have not grasped.

Third Party/Over-the-Counter additives are NOT the same additives we use in formulated lubrcants.

But knock yourself out, it's your engine or transmission and your money.


So if I call Red Line and ask them if the zddp additive they sell is equal to what they use in their oil they're gonna say no?

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
So if I call Red Line and ask them if the zddp additive they sell is equal to what they use in their oil they're gonna say no?



Correct.

There are different types of commercial ZDDP with different ratios of S-P-Z.

The Redline liquid Engine Oil Break-in additive contains more than just ZDDP, and is designed for one application, the break-in of racing and rebuilt engines and 1s not designed for the home chemist.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=21

A commercial additive package today contains a balanced mix of various chemistries and ZDDP is only one component.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
So if I call Red Line and ask them if the zddp additive they sell is equal to what they use in their oil they're gonna say no?



Correct.

There are different types of commercial ZDDP with different ratios of S-P-Z.

The Redline liquid Engine Oil Break-in additive contains more than just ZDDP, and is designed for one application, the break-in of racing and rebuilt engines and 1s not designed for the home chemist.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=21

A commercial additive package today contains a balanced mix of various chemistries and ZDDP is only one component.


The third paragraph:
Can also be used in conventional and synthetic oils during regular operation, providing an extra package of protection otherwise not found in most motor oils.

MORE TECHNICAL INFORMATION

Increases antiwear level per quart when using One Bottle (16oz.):

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
15 quarts - 610 ppm - 736 ppm
12 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
10 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
8 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm
7 quarts - 1307 ppm - 1577 ppm
6 quarts - 1525 ppm - 1840 ppm
5 quarts - 1830 ppm - 2208 ppm
4 quarts - 2288 ppm - 2760 ppm
1 quart - 9160 ppm - 11040 ppm

Half Bottle (8oz.) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
12 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
10 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
8 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
6 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm
5 quarts - 915 ppm - 1104 ppm
4 quarts - 1145 ppm - 1380 ppm

One Quarter Bottle (4oz) when treating:

Capacity - Phosphorus - Zinc
6 quarts - 382 ppm - 460 ppm
5 quarts - 458 ppm - 552 ppm
4 quarts - 572 ppm - 690 ppm
3 quarts - 763 ppm - 920 ppm


Bottle (16oz) contains:
33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P)
20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn)
16.6 grams Sulphur (S)


It sounds to me like they're advocating someone playing with their motor oil with this additive. That sulphur is an ep additive, correct?

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

Bottle (16oz) contains:
33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P)
20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn)
16.6 grams Sulphur (S)

It sounds to me like they're advocating someone playing with their motor oil with this additive. That sulphur is an ep additive, correct?



The sulfur is part of the ZDDP, zinc dialkyldithiophosphate. Dithio means two sulfur atoms. The weight of the S vs Zn will vary depending on the exact type of ZZDP used, but is roughly 2:1, as seen here.

Ed

 

[turtlevette]

If you're designing your own zddp are you then a formulator?.

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
If you're designing your own zddp are you then a formulator?.



No, you are an additive manufacturer/supplier. I'm with Molakule here - I don't know if or how you can get hold of any of the component additives that are used by formulators to design, test and then commercialise a finished oil.

You really do not know what is any formulation and really really do not know if and how they might interact with each other in a mixture. VOA tells you very little about the types and ratios of additives in an oil.

Sure if you mix it up and use it and nothing seizes or blows up then you got away with it. And as you said, you have to work hard to really screw it up discernibly, but getting away with it is not as good as it gets.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: weasley
You really do not know what is any formulation and really really do not know if and how they might interact with each other in a mixture. VOA tells you very little about the types and ratios of additives in an oil.


And a VOA of a mixed oil tells you nothing about the possible interactions.

Originally Posted By: weasley
Sure if you mix it up and use it and nothing seizes or blows up then you got away with it. And as you said, you have to work hard to really screw it up discernibly, but getting away with it is not as good as it gets.


"Pile of failed engines" and "nothing blew up" are the anecdotes used as proof these days.

A used oil analysis of a single "mix" is a faith leap, with ex post facto justification.

 

[userfriendly]

Weasley; After you highlighted "dithio", a light went on and I zoomed down to Mola's gear trib part 2 and looked at "non-reactive sulfur-phosphate", which in that case means; not reactive to yellow metals. "Not to confused with elemental sulfur".
When we look at additive levels in oil companies pds, we see both zddp and sulfur %wt. In this example, is the sulfur part of the zddp package or is a separate additive?

 

[weasley]

It wasn't me who highlighted the "dithio", but I am happy to generalise. Sulphur comes in from a number of sources:

Base oil (if group I/II)
Detergents (especially sulphonates but also in others)
ZDDP (as the "thio" part).

There's no way of knowing from a VOA/UOA where any element has come from, unless an element is unique to a specific additive. This is why Zn and P are used as proxies for ZDDP dosage, although even these are not a perfect measure as Zn ratios differ per ZDDP type and you can't assume there is only one type in a given oil.

 

[userfriendly]

If Sulphur is naturally occurring in group I and II base oils, would that make it a better lubricant, sans additives?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
If Sulphur is naturally occurring in group I and II base oils, would that make it a better lubricant, sans additives?


No, and it's because of the higher oxidation potentials of Group I and II.

Once again, we have to consider a large list of issues and not focus on just one aspect when considering lubricant chemistry.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

After reading all that, I'm ready to attend an MA (Mixer's Anonymous) meeting. "My name is Brad and I'm a Mixer...."

Yet, frankenbrews have low iron wear in general. Uh-oh, I'm sinking down again.

Can't we at least add moly or some other "straight" additives once in a while, that go well on top of anything?